Blue Corn Comics -- Wingfooting It with Wyatt

Wingfooting It with Wyatt
(8/18/00)

Another response to Wingfooting It with Wyatt. Two of our correspondents debate before Rob weighs in at the end:

>> So there's nothing un-stereotypical about John Proudstar? <<

Hm, constant use of 'Pale eyes'? Nope.
Wrestling giant buffalo at any given oppurtunity? Nope.
Angry, bitter hardass who speaks in stilted english? Nope, that's pretty stereotypical of angry injuns.
Codename with no application to his powers whatsoever? Thunderbird; superstrength; heh heh.
An Apache over six feet tall? Aha! Now this is not something common at all!
Then again, maybe they were going for the 'all indians are huge' thingie.

>> I find that hard to believe. <<

Then find something.

James isn't as bad, but look at those early appearances, and they'll make you cringe. Running around in a loin cloth, using archaic forms of speech because it's supposed to be 'Injun talk-um' or something. And while later X-Force improved on this (love the jab at his 'cowboy style' if I could remember what issue that was from; it almost explains Marvel Indians attraction to leather fringe, almost).

>> Factual errors. They happen all the time in fiction. It's not a *good* thing, but personally, I can live with them, just like I can live with characters talking in the vacuum of space. <<

What happens when someone says all white people are psychotic, blueballed nazi punks bent on starting up the Crusades at a moments notice? Sure it's a stereotype, sure it's silly, but if it makes the story work, will you forgive it like you would characters speaking in outerspace? All blacks are chain-wearing, bad-mutha-talkin', rap worshipping buckwheat look-a-likes?
C'mon, no one is that forgiving, no one can sit through every blatant idiotic stereotype, just to further the story. But when it isn't about a stereotype of something you fit into, it doesn't seem to bother anyone.

>> Probably because where the capital of one of the world's most powerful nations (with a few hundred million inhabitants) is, is somewhat more important then having the population of a few-hundred people reservation down exactly.

The location of the capitol becomes more important than a couple hundred people who get slaughtered? I'd move the capitol anywhere before I'd say, yeah, go ahead and kill some folks. Marvel ought to treat their own fiction with a little respect, I mean, it's like screwing up the numbers of how many died in the holocaust. Screw it up too much, and people are going to complain.

>> those fictional countries would not exist. Neither is there an Avengers Mansion at 890 Fifth Avenue in the real universe <<

Fictional countries usually have to be wiped out, or are ruled by evil deviants, and therefore can't be real ones (since those real countries would no doubt sue; why the commies were fair game for years, but the rest of Europe was fictionalized when ruled by evil). Avenger's Mansion is a building, not a people, there's a big difference. Saying there's not a real Avengers' Mansion, well, there's no real Avengers, either. There are real Indians, there is a real Camp Verde, and I'm sure they're happy to know they're all dead now.

*****

>> Hm, constant use of 'Pale eyes'? Nope. <<

If you'll read my posts, you'll notice that I *never* argued there was *nothing* stereotypical about him. Hence, your pointing out things that are stereotypical about him is irrelevant, unnecessary, and the rest of it is snipped because it serves no purpose.

>> An Apache over six feet tall? Aha! Now this is not something common at all! <<

Great! So there are un-stereotypical things about him. Thank you.

>> Then again, maybe they were going for the 'all indians are huge' thingie. <<

So if they *do* go for 'not something common at all', then that's bad too??

>> What happens when someone says all white people are psychotic, blueballed nazi punks bent on starting up the Crusades at a moments notice? <<

'Psychotic', 'Nazi', 'punks' and 'Crusades' imply violence. You're clearly trying to pick an extremist enough example to provoke a 'no' reply. I don't think there have been many, if any Amerinds in the comics who have been portrayed as bloodthirsty and wanting to scalp every person that comes along. Even Scalphunter has never actually scalped anyone. I can't off-hand recall an Amerind portrayal in comics that went to such a violent extreme.

I'd be bothered by the above stereotype, yes, I admit it. I'd be *more* bothered by a bloodthirsty scalphunter stereotype of an Amerind because someone might actually believe it.

I dare you to pull out such an extreme case from canon though.

>> Sure it's a stereotype, sure it's silly, but if it makes the story work, will you forgive it like you would characters speaking in outerspace? <<

Not that extreme a one, no. Wouldn't forgive an equally extreme one about Amerinds either. I maintain that there aren't many writers stupid enough to use such extreme stereotypes.

>> All blacks are chain-wearing, bad-mutha-talkin', rap worshipping buckwheat look-a-likes? <<

Isn't that what most black comic characters are? ;)

>> C'mon, no one is that forgiving, no one can sit through every blatant idiotic stereotype, just to further the story. But when it isn't about a stereotype of something you fit into, it doesn't seem to bother anyone. <<

Oh, for god's sakes. I have sympathy for minorities. I just don't seem to have enough for your tastes. Have it your way. You've already made up your mind about everyone.

>> The location of the capitol becomes more important than a couple hundred people who get slaughtered? <<

Can you say with a straight face 'The exact number of the Apache population in Camp Verde should be taught worldwide in schools more than the capital of the United States of America'? That children in Malaysia should know there are 600 people in Camp Verde instead of 300, before they're taught the capital of the US? Like it or not, the latter is more important.

Also, I might note that I'm Baltic. I live in a Baltic country. Did you see me raising hell about the wiping out of the Baltic country of Slorenia in AVENGERS last year? These aren't real people getting killed. They're ink on a page.

>> I'd move the capitol anywhere before I'd say, yeah, go ahead and kill some folks. Marvel ought to treat their own fiction with a little respect, I mean, it's like screwing up the numbers of how many died in the holocaust. Screw it up too much, and people are going to complain. <<

Except that the holocaust was real. Camp Verde massacre was fictional.

>> Fictional countries usually have to be wiped out, or are ruled by evil deviants, and therefore can't be real ones (since those real countries would no doubt sue; why the commies were fair game for years, but the rest of Europe was fictionalized when ruled by evil). <<

Like Wakanda? Transia? And even if your argument held water, it still wouldn't change the fact that the fictional countries' existence flat out proves that the Marvel Universe isn't, and never was supposed to be, 100% exact copy of the real universe.

>> Avenger's Mansion is a building, not a people, there's a big difference. <<

Of course there is. What you're failing to grasp is that it was brought up to establish that the MU is NOT the RU, which it established quite well.

>> Saying there's not a real Avengers' Mansion, well, there's no real Avengers, either. There are real Indians, there is a real Camp Verde, and I'm sure they're happy to know they're all dead now. <<

Have you asked them? Or are you just practicing righteous indignance for people that have not asked you to do so?

Personally, if Finland got wiped out in some comic, I'd think it was cool someone remembered we existed and put us in a story. Should Sydney inhabitants be miffed over their city being blasted to bits in Independence Day? Should every human being be offended by Planet of the Apes because humanity got wiped out and made into slaves?

Should fiction just restrict itself to killing fictional people and destroying fictional places?

Rob's reply
My reply to this exchange:

>> I don't think there have been many, if any Amerinds in the comics who have been portrayed as bloodthirsty and wanting to scalp every person that comes along. Even Scalphunter has never actually scalped anyone. I can't off-hand recall an Amerind portrayal in comics that went to such a violent extreme. <<

The Indian characters aren't necessarily bloodthirsty scalphunters, but they are often big, strong, warrior types. You want a list? Turok, Arak, Thunderbird, Warpath, Red Wolf, Scout, Butcher. Forge and Moonstar are (Cheyenne) warriors also, although they don't quite fall into the big, strong category. Same with Gen13's Rainmaker, an Apache warrior. Even Wyatt Wingfoot is a big, strong Keewazi buck, although he's smart too.

We just covered about 80% of the appearances of Native characters in comics since 1960. If they aren't warriors they're usually mystics—Shaman, Talisman, and Black Crow. How many have been neither warriors nor mystics? Um, well, I guess you could count Dawnstar of the Legion of Super-Heroes. She was more of a pretend Indian—pinkish skin and generic "Great Spirit" beliefs, but she had no real Indian culture.

Are you catching my drift? 90% or more of the Native characters in comics are badly stereotypical. Some stereotypes are unavoidable, and some are even useful for story purposes. But a 90% stereotype rate (again, assuming we can quantify these things) is nothing to brag about.

>> Can you say with a straight face 'The exact number of the Apache population in Camp Verde should be taught worldwide in schools more than the capital of the United States of America'? That children in Malaysia should know there are 600 people in Camp Verde instead of 300, before they're taught the capital of the US? Like it or not, the latter is more important. <<

Possibly, but both flaws are avoidable and unnecessary.

>> Also, I might note that I'm Baltic. I live in a Baltic country. Did you see me raising hell about the wiping out of the Baltic country of Slorenia in AVENGERS last year? These aren't real people getting killed. They're ink on a page. <<

Most stereotypes are just ink on a page or images on a screen. Does that excuse them? Birth of a Nation, Amos 'n' Andy, Little Black Sambo...were they also just harmless media fictions? Why worry about a stereotype ever if your position is valid?

>> Like Wakanda? Transia? And even if your argument held water, it still wouldn't change the fact that the fictional countries' existence flat out proves that the Marvel Universe isn't, and never was supposed to be, 100% exact copy of the real universe. <<

Marvel has made it clear, in many ways, that its earth is supposed to be the real world—but an earth with the sole difference of having superheroes and alien races and so forth. Again, Marvel doesn't fictionalize anything we know to be real, such as the location of the capital or the identity of past presidents. Why is it acceptable to fictionalize Indian life but not Anglo-American life?

Because Marvel's creators don't have time to do research? If they don't have time, they shouldn't write about something they know is going to be inaccurate. The point is, they declare (to themselves) that white Anglo-Saxon American culture is important and ethnic or foreign cultures aren't. They treat the former with respect and the latter with disdain.

If they made mistakes at random, no one might mind. What they're doing is following an intentional policy of negligence: "If we harm people of other cultures, it doesn't matter. Because we're real people and they're faceless nobodies."

I'm simply calling them on this unspoken policy, that's all. Once you start thinking about it, you realize how stupid and unnecessary it is. We're perpetuating past problems when there's no need to do so.

>> Should Sydney inhabitants be miffed over their city being blasted to bits in Independence Day? Should every human being be offended by Planet of the Apes because humanity got wiped out and made into slaves? <<

If it happened once, no. If it happened a thousand times, yes. Minority stereotyping has happened that often. It continues to happen daily.

Rob

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