Another response to Thunderbird in the Comics:

Rob:
>> "There is still a man among the Apache." The implication is that other Indians—the unlucky ones born without superpowers—are losers. That isn't how most Native people think of themselves. <<

Ron:
>> It may not be the way Native people think of themselves, but that's apparently what HE thought of them. <<

Then his thoughts were stereotypical.

>> Although he's a fictitious character, he's a man with his own opinions. <<

No, he was a man who parroted the stereotypical thoughts of mainstream America—specifically Len Wein's and Chris Claremont's.

>> One of the most realistic verbal exchanges between two characters I've ever seen in comics. Like it or not, people talk like that. <<

In 1975 comic books? Sure they do. You quote me all the examples of a Marvel superhero using the word "Jap" in 1975 and I'll send you a dollar for each one. Don't spend it all in one place.

>> Not all of them, but it didn't surprise me to see T-Bird call Sunfire a Jap. He wasn't a very nice guy. That's his personality showing through. <<

No, it's the writer's stereotypical views showing through.

>> Even more examples of realistic dialogue. <<

Even more examples of stereotypical thinking. Name all the other heroes who called Russians "Russkies" in 1975. Superman? Batman? Spider-Man? Captain America? Go ahead and list them...I'll wait.

I mentioned "chick" and "Russkie" not because they were outrages in their own right, but to show a pattern of behavior. Thunderbird called everyone by a derogatory nickname. His propensity to be crude, angry, and warrior-like is a Native American stereotype. It's a modern-day version of an Indian's saying, "White man bad! Me no trust'um!"

Other heroes lack erudition
>> Others, except Logan and, in later years, Gambit, X-Man, Strong Guy, and a host of others. <<

So they all lack erudition. So? The point is that when you have a range of characters, you can show a range of language and behavior. When you have one character, you can make him typical or you can make him stereotypical. Wein, Claremont, and Marvel chose the latter approach.

Let's look at Logan. He has savage, animal-like powers, so his speech patterns fit his character. There's no similar justification for making T-Bird's speech crude. He was no closer to being an "animal" or an "elemental force" than Storm or Nightcrawler, yet they spoke perfectly.

>> Totally inaccurate. Here are Thunderbird's last words taken right out of the comic they appeared in <<

I read the comic, which is why I was able to quote it accurately. In fact, I've been reading the comic since it came out in 1975—when you were in diapers. If you read it in CLASSIC X-MEN #3, along with the companion story...well, both of them show T-Bird feeling depressed and worthless. He was questioning the point of his life.

>> "I've been a loner all my life, Xavier—an outcast—dumped on by everybody I met—but I'm a man, Xavier, a warrior of the Apache—an' today I'm gonna prove it!! <<

If someone brags in his suicide note that he's going to "show you all!" or "teach you all a lesson," does that change the fact of his suicide? No. Such claims are fairly common in suicides.

You forgot to quote Xavier's words as T-Bird died or Banshee's words afterward. Both made it clear T-Bird could've saved himself. Banshee made it clear he could've taken out Nefaria's plane. Neither gave the slightest indication T-Bird had any goal except dying with Nefaria.

At that point the self-destruct system was inoperative and Nefaria was defeated. When your foe is already defeated but you decide to die and take him with you, that's called suicide.

>> Are those the words of a man full of self-loathing? Absolutely not. <<

Not superficially, but given T-Bird's self-loathing earlier in the issue, they were obviously false bravado.

Was Thunderbird a loser?
>> Those are the words of a man out to, if nothing else, prove to everyone that he's NOT a loser. <<

I wouldn't say someone who commits suicide is a loser, but since Nefaria was already defeated and fleeing the scene, T-Bird's actions were mentally unbalanced. No other hero I can think of has deemed it necessary to sacrifice himself for a defeated and fleeing enemy.

I suppose you could say T-Bird didn't know Nefaria was defeated, although Xavier's mental commands should have made it plain. Nevertheless, the real danger was back at the mountain where the self-destruct system was. Instead of trying to help disarm it, T-Bird took off on his suicidal mission. That's slightly deranged, not heroic.

Next time you have a choice between a villain and a bomb, here's a pointer. Stop the bomb, not the villain. Stopping the villain but letting the bomb explode gets you zero points in Valhalla, the Heroes' Hall of Fame, or anywhere else.

>> Thunderbird died a hero in the line of battle trying to do the right thing. <<

The "right thing" is committing suicide unnecessarily? How do you figure? What exactly was T-Bird's rationale for going down with Nefaria? Invent one for me, because there's none in the comic except T-Bird's suicide speech.

As every other X-Man on the scene indicated, T-Bird's death was pointless. No one saluted him for his courageous action, real or imagined. All they did was mourn his senseless loss.

>> A nobler fate than others after him have faced. <<

You've been watching too many Westerns and war movies. As far as I'm concerned, the kudos go to he who lives to fight another day. To die pointlessly is...pointless.

>> I normally wouldn't (and don't) argue with you about Native American cultures and such, but this is a bit different. <<

I'm sure it is. Nevertheless, the outcome will be the same. <g>

>> No, Thunderbird wasn't the most likeable man on the team, he was gruff and used racial slurs <<

Right. He was a stereotypical uncivilized, war-like Indian.

>> I think you're taking it a bit too sensitively because he just happened to also be an Apache. <<

I wrote one mini-essay about it in the 51st issue of my newsletter. Is that obsessing about it or overemphasizing it? I don't think so. I think it's putting it in its proper perspective—as one of countless subtle examples of our predominant mindset. Whites are civilized and minorities aren't, if you want it in a nutshell.

The debate continues....

The point is that this particular death didn't have to happen. Thunderbird died before his time because he committed suicide. His death happened sooner rather than later because he caused it to happen.

>> It was plummeting due to the beating he was giving it. <<

It would've continued plummeting had he saved himself, especially if he had let Banshee take over.

>> Have you ever gotten to the point where you're so enraged that you doin't really think clearly? <<

When my life was at stake? No.

>> That you don't consider the consequences of what your actions may be? <<

Considering everyone was yelling at him, T-Bird didn't have to do much considering. The options were ringing in his ears and mind.

More important, his final words were lucid, not garbled by rage. Xavier begged him to save himself, and T-Bird replied, "...I'm a man, Xavier. A warrior of the Apache—an' today I'm gonna prove it!!" IOW, he was conscious of his actions and their consequences—the opposite of a berserker rage.

>> Probably not, that's a human trait... <<

Let's not have any gratuitous insults.

>> He chose to take down the bad guy. He happened to die doing it. <<

He chose to die. He happened to do it while taking down the bad guy.

Additional dialog proves point
>> This dialogue appeared in the additional story of CLASSIC X-MEN, right? If it did, then it was written years after the original story. <<

Yes, by Chris Claremont, the same guy who wrote the original story.

>> At the time, Claremont might have intended T-Bird to die heroically and then when he wrote CXM decided it would "beef up" the story by giving it that weak suicide angle. <<

Maybe he decided to beef up the "weak" suicide angle in the first story with a stronger suicide angle in the second.

A little background: Claremont and Len Wein are credited as co-plotters of X-MEN #94-95. From X-Men Companion Vol. 1, I gather Wein and Cockrum decided to kill Thunderbird off because he was redundant. In Claremont's interview, he said he wouldn't have killed T-Bird, but he would've written him out. So apparently the death was mainly Wein's doing.

Unfortunately, X-Men Companion doesn't say anything about what T-Bird might've been thinking according to Wein or Claremont. It seems likely the co-plotters didn't think much about the nature of his death. They had a hero who stereotypically needed to prove himself "a man," so they had him go down in flames.

Later, when Claremont was in full control, he edged a little closer to the truth. But to my knowledge, no one has explicitly admitted the truth—except Wolverine in one panel—or explicitly denied it. Luckily, we have me for that.

>> And remember, just because Wolverine thought it, doesn't mean he was right. <<

Wolverine was on the scene and he knew T-Bird's state of mind from their brief time together. As a fellow angry malcontent, the two had many things in common. Why would Wolvie say T-Bird chose to die unless he was sure of it?

>> If Prof X said "I read John's mind an instant before the plane exploded, and I saw that he wanted to die," -- or words similar to that -- then I'd drop my argument. <<

If Prof. X had said it that clearly, I wouldn't have had to write an essay making the almost-obvious case.

Going down pointlessly = a hero's death?
>> I have, do, and always will think he died a heroes death. <<

Yes, don't let the evidence get in your way. <g>

>> If Chris Claremont himself wrote me telling me he always intended T-Bird's death to be a suicide, then I'd tell him he failed as a writer in that instance, because that's not how I took it. <<

I'd say he failed several ways:

1) The threat of nuclear armageddon suddenly vanished when the Doomsmith system was damaged. Can you say "deus ex machina"?

2) T-Bird's whole "I'm a man and a warrior" schtick was woefully stereotypical.

3) T-Bird's motivation was slightly ambiguous. If Claremont had had guts, he would've addressed the issue we're debating in the next X-MEN. T-Bird's motivation for dying—"Why'd he do it?"—should've been on the X-Men's minds for months. Instead, they never analyzed his death and forgot about it quickly.

>> One final question on the matter: If it was Banshee or Colossuss who were in that position, an Irishman and a Russian, would it be affecting you this greatly? <<

Who says it's affecting me greatly? Did I sound distraught over the issue? These are intellectual arguments for me. I'm not gonna kill myself over Indian stereotypes or suicide.

>> How come you're not waving the flag for Russian stereotypes after Colossus' MUCH clearer suicide in recent issues? <<

What about Phoenix's death in X-MEN #137? Or Spock's death in The Wrath of Khan? The answer is that I don't consider sacrificing yourself to save others the same things as killing yourself for no good reason (e.g., to prove you're a man). They both may fit the dictionary definition, but there's a subtle difference. Sacrifice implies a positive motive, suicide a negative one.

Since these other deaths were necessary to save lives, I don't equate any of them with T-Bird's suicide. I'm sure comic book villains have committed suicide many times also—although they always survive it somehow. I'm not sure a non-villain has ever committed a "real" suicide—killed himself when the circumstances didn't demand it.

Why only Native stereotypes?
>> Or is it not the same if and when caucasians are being stereotyped? <<

It is the same, but I usually limit myself to Native stereotypes because it's a small and manageable field. And because Native stereotypes are much broader and more blatant. Compare Thunderbird as a "warrior Apache" to Colossus as a Russian with "the soul of a poet." One could argue the latter is a Russian stereotype, but it would be less obvious to most people and would require more work to explain.

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