Blue Corn Comics -- Stereotype of the Month Entry

Stereotype of the Month Entry
(6/25/01)

Dear Robert Schmidt,

For the "Stereotype of the Month," I'd like to nominate the Tyranena Brewing Company in Lake Mills, Wisconsin (http://www.tyranena.com).

Tyranena's year-round beer styles include three styles after Native archeological sites near Lake Mills, and a fourth named after the Sauk leader. (Can his descendants sue?):

*Stone Tepee Pale Ale
*Headless Man Amber Ale
*Ancient Aztalan Brown Ale
*Chief BlackHawk Porter

Thanks!
Zoltan Grossman
Midwest Treaty Network
http://www.treatyland.com
mtn@igc.org

*****

Evidence from the Tyranena Brewing Co. website (as of 6/25/01)

Stone Tepee Pale Ale

Background: The legend of Tyranena began 3,000 years ago, with a group of pyramids and effigy mounds constructed in a remote valley formed by a vast, slow-moving glacier.

Today, these ancient "stone tepees" lie 60 feet below the surface of Rock Lake in Jefferson County, Wisconsin. No one is certain how or why they were built, but many have speculated on their origin, purpose and the people who built them.

We invite you to develop your own theories on the legend and mystery of Tyranena while enjoying a Stone Tepee Pale Ale.

Here are the theories we have heard:

The Atlantis Theory The seafaring people of Atlantis mined the copper deposits in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and then traded the copper throughout the Americas, Asia and Europe.

The Atlantians followed the rivers and on the way to the Mississippi River, stopped at a lake they named Tyranena. Located below the hard snow line, Tyranena was a perfect stopping point. They built their ceremonial effigy mounds, stone temples, and buried their dead along the shores of the ancient lake.

When they discovered copper closer to Mexico, they flooded this sacred area so it could not be desecrated by their enemies.

The Aztalan Theory The people of Aztalan, located three miles from Tyranena, were experiencing a severe 11 year drought. The extended drought destroyed their crops and reduced the size of Tyranena to a fraction of its former size.

Their religous shamans decreed that the gods needed a human sacrifice. Temples and effigy mounds were built along the dried lake bed, followed by the loss of several young virgins.

The rains returned and the lake filled to its previous levels, submerging the ceremonial structures.

The Establishment Theory The stone structures and earthen mounds have no special significance. They are merely the relics of the glaciers that covered Wisconsin during the last Ice Age.

Headless Man Amber Alt

Background: The ancient peoples that inhabited Wisconsin are known for building numerous celestial stone monuments and earthen effigy mounds to serve as symbols of their culture and their beliefs. Unfortunately, most of these structures have fallen victim to the farmer's plow over the past 150 years. Not far from the brewery, lying preserved on the floor of Rock Lake, are two effigy mounds -- a Headless Man and a Turtle. Legend tells us, as the Turtle can survive on both land and in water, its spirit helped guide the Headless Man into the afterlife. May the Turtle's spirit guide you to happiness with a Headless Man Amber Alt.

Ancient Aztalan Brown Ale

Chief Blackhawk Porter

Rob's comment
Naming a beer after an archaeological site isn't necessarily a problem. But the writeups reveal a few problems:

1) Nowhere does the site refer explicitly to Indians or Native Americans, not to mention the Mound-Building or Mississippian culture that probably built Aztalan [or the Stone Tepees at nearby Rock Lake, aka Tyranena]. This is stereotyping by omission. Who were the unnamed "people" the site refers to?

Answer: These people almost certainly were not Atlanteans or one of the lost tribes of Israel. Nor were they "ancient astronauts" who arrived in "chariots of the gods." They were undoubtedly paleo-Indians or Indians—the same people who gave birth to many of today's midwestern tribes.

2) Attributing the "stone tepees" to Atlanteans, or even implying Atlanteans might be responsible, trivializes real Indian accomplishments by comparison. The first Americans built huge pyramids, complexes, and mounds across America. Without knowing anything about them, I'd guess the stone tepees were natural formations arising from underwater volcanic vents. My second guess is that Amerindian people erected them for some purpose. The Atlantis theory doesn't even make the list.

3) If you compare the Atlantean theory to the "unnamed people of Aztalan" theory, you see more biased thinking. The Atlanteans supposedly mined copper deposits, traded it throughout the world, built stone temples and effigy mounds, buried their dead, and diverted rivers. These are all marks of an "advanced" civilization. In contrast, the unnamed people of Aztalan supposedly built temples and mounds solely to sacrifice virgins to satisfy their gods' demands. This is the mark of a "civilized" stereotype.

Why wasn't it the Atlanteans who sacrificed virgins? And the unnamed people of Aztalan who traded throughout the world? Because that would paint Indians as civilized and Euro-Atlanteans as barbaric, and we can't have that.

Note that it doesn't matter if Tyranena Brewing is merely repeating the stereotypical theories instead of inventing them. Tyranena Brewing is getting the nomination precisely for repeating them. If it were me, I would've denounced the theories as stereotypical when I first heard them—as I'm doing now. Tyranena Brewing posted the theories on its company website for all to see.

The smart approach might've been to list the official theories first, perhaps quoting them from the literature at the Aztalan State Park or a nearby university. Presumably this would exclude the Atlantis theory, since I strongly doubt any federal, state, or local authority is discussing Atlantis in any context. If other "fun" or "interesting" theories existed, Tyranena Brewing could've listed them in a sidebar, at the end of their webpage, or on a separate page.

4) Saying "May the Turtle's spirit guide you to happiness with a Headless Man Amber Alt" may mock, insult, or blaspheme the ancient Amerindians' religion and the religion of their descendants today. The mounds and the mythological figures they represent—Turtle and the Headless Man—probably were and may still be sacred. If true, people, especially non-Indian people, shouldn't use and commercialize them.

5) The Chief Blackhawk Porter may not be stereotypical, since Tyranena Brewing makes no claim about Chief Blackhawk's attributes. But yes, his descendants may have a valid lawsuit (see the Crazy Horse contretemps for further details). Whether they can win it or not is another matter.

Wisconsin Public Radio contacts Rob Larson of Tyranena Brewing

----- Original Message -----
From: Gil Halsted, Wisconsin Public Radio—Madison <halsted@wpr.org>
To: <rob@tyranena.com>
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 11:04 AM
Subject: indian stereotypes on beer

Dear Rob,

I am a reporter for Wiscosin Public Radio in Madison. I am working on a story about some of your beer and concerns that some Native Americans may have about the names and logos you're using. I am pasting in below the messages and websites that were brought to my attention that prompted my interest in the story. I'd like to get your side of the story as well, and I'm hoping you'll agree to do a brief taped phone interview. Please let me know if that might be possible.

Gil Halsted

*****

Gil,

Thank you for forwarding this information to me. I am troubled that some, hopefully very few, Native Americans are concerned about, or offended by, the names and logos we use for our beers.

The names of all of our beers are dedicated to local legends; historical people, places and events; and those things quintessential Wisconsin. Our year-round beers, that are the subject of concern by Zoltan Grossman, very specifically fall into this category. With our Stone Tepee Pale Ale and Headless Man Amber Alt we talk about local legends. Ancient Aztalan deals with a local historical place. Chief BlackHawk deals with a local historical person.

The area around Lake Mills and Aztalan is rich in ancient history and legend. Unfortunately, too many people are unaware of this. People forget the past or just seem to assume that nothing occurred here until the European settlers arrived.

Yes, we are promoting our beer and our locality, but we are also hoping to inspire a curiousity and wonder about all that may have occurred in the past. Many people have commented to me that they had no idea of the events that may have occurred here in the past. It even made some of them go to the library to learn more of our areas history. I think that is a good thing.

Let's deal with our beers one at a time:

Stone Tepee Pale Ale: The Pyramids of Rock Lake have been a local legend since the arrival of the first European settlers (and likely the Native Americans who inhabited the area before them). To this day, our Chamber of Commerce logo has three pyramids under the lake, we have a Pyramid hotel, and we have had two television crews come through to do stories about them. We merely relate the legend on our product. On our beer label, we claim only that they are a legend with many explanations and invite people to develop their own. On our website, we list three of explanations that we have heard or read.

I invite you to read the following publications and view their website for more information. I do not recall, but I believe I used much of the information from these resources.

Joseph, Frank. The Lost Pyramids of Rock Lake, Wisconsin's Sunken Civilization. St. Paul: Galde Press, Inc., 1992.

Joseph, Frank. Atlantis in Wisconsin, New Revelations About Lost Sunken City. St. Paul: Galde Press, Inc., 1995.

or visit the Rock Lake Research Society at:

http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm

Headless Man Amber Alt. Again this beer is a tribute to our local history. It deals with the wealth of earthen effigy mounds and celestial stone monuments in Wisconsin. Again, there are unfortunately far too many people that do not know of their existence. We continue and state that it is unfortunate that most of these structures have been destroyed over the last 150 years. We have tried to inspire wonder at their existence by relating an abbreviated story of the Headless Man and Turtle effigy mound legend. I do not believe we show any disrespect to the builders of these mounds.

Ancient Aztalan Brown Ale. Aztalan is considered by many to be one of the most important archeaological site in Wisconsin. Unfortunately, very few people in southerneastern Wisconsin (much less the rest of the state) even know it exists. Again, we are promoting a local legend and a major local historical site. The site is named Aztalan because early researchers believed it was the ancient home of the Aztecs. Today, most researchers believe it was the northernmost outpost of the middle Mississipians whose major hub was in Cahokia, Illinois. Again, I do not believe we show any disrepect to the ancient inhabitants of Aztalan.

Chief BlackHawk Porter. Blackhawk was a Sauk leader who played a significant role in the early history of Wisconsin and southern Wisconsin in particular. Our label states "Strong beliefs, independent thinking and an unwavering commitment to his family and his people earned him a reputation as a man of integrity and courage... We celebrate this Sauk leader and his courage with our Chief BlackHawk Porter." I think we have shown the upmost respect for Blackhawk. And again, while we all learn the story of the Black Hawk War in school, noone really remembers it. And as adults, many people have a greater appreciation for what the Native Americans had to endure at the hands of the early European settlers and the American government. Because of his historical importance, you will find many businesses today that use the name Blackhawk.

I believe we have treated all of these topics with the upmost respect. I can appreciate that a few Native Americans may think that this is their history and should only be used by them. However, I believe that this history belongs to all of us. This is the history of the land where I live. There is one past, one present, and one future.

I appreciate your offer of a short telephone interview. However, I do not believe that I would be able to express my thoughts effectively through such a medium.

Thank you for contacting me.

Rob Larson, Founder
Tyranena Brewing Company LLC
1025 Owen Street
PO Box 736
Lake Mills, WI 53551
Phone: 920/648-8699
Email: rob@tyranena.com
Web: www.tyranena.com

WPR forwards Larson's letter to Schmidt
My comments to Gil Halsted of WPR about Rob Larson's letter:

>> I'm working on this story but haven't finished yet. Here's the response from the brewer. <<

Thanks for following up on this. I'll be happy to post it on my site. But I don't think it addresses any of my criticisms, which were specific.

Rob Larson talks about why he chose the names for the beers, what the names refer to, and how he hopes they'll inspire people. I don't think I critiqued those three areas. In particular, I didn't have a problem with his choice of names, or say I did.

My problem was with the explanations given on the website. In this message Larson only obliquely addresses what his company wrote on his site. (Perhaps he hadn't read my posting yet.) Let me address those specific points:

>> On our website, we list three of explanations that we have heard or read. <<

If Larson heard blacks were less intelligent than whites, would he name his product Little Black Sambo Ale and explain the Sambo legend on his site? Reading or hearing certain explanations doesn't obviate the need to think about them, to evaluate them, to consider valid alternatives. Larson hasn't done that, as far as I can tell.

>> Joseph, Frank. Atlantis in Wisconsin, New Revelations About Lost Sunken City. <<

I'd say again that any source suggesting Atlantis as a serious explanation for the achievements of Native Americans should be taken with a shaker full of salt. No such skepticism exists on the Tyranena site. If author Frank Joseph has a PhD in American Indian Studies, that might be a different matter—but without checking, I'm guessing he doesn't.

>> I do not believe we show any disrespect to the builders of these mounds. <<

In cases like this, it would be wise to talk with the local Natives (the Winnebagos?), who often assert a relationship with the builders of ancient mounds and ruins. Physical locations like these are often considered sacred and not to be used for commercial purposes. As I wrote in my posting, I don't know, so I'm just suggesting this as a possible problem.

>> The site is named Aztalan because early researchers believed it was the ancient home of the Aztecs. <<

As I pointed out in my writeup, the beer site doesn't mention the Aztecs or any Native people by name. That's not a huge flaw, but it's evidence of stereotypical thinking. The lead space is given to the Atlantean theory, not to any theory about real Native people. To me that suggests Larson prefers the exotic "foreigner" theory and isn't clear about what Native people have accomplished.

>> I can appreciate that a few Native Americans may think that this is their history and should only be used by them. <<

There's no need to get carried away with talk like this. As far as I know, Zoltan Grossman, you, and I are the only ones who have ever thought about this issue. I don't know Zoltan, so I can't even say whether he's an Indian or not. My conclusions are my own and I'm not Native.

>> I appreciate your offer of a short telephone interview. However, I do not believe that I would be able to express my thoughts effectively through such a medium. <<

I could express my thoughts effectively, so feel free to call me again. <g>

Rob

Larson contacts Schmidt directly

Mr. Schmidt,

I disagree with your analysis of the information on the Tyranena web site and its implications that we are stereotyping the Native Americans or other indigineous peoples. All of our beers are dedicated to local legends; historical people, places and events; and those things quintessential Wisconsin. We have attempted to treat all of these things with the upmost respect. The area around Lake Mills and Aztalan is rich in pre-European history and activity that unfortunately too many people are unaware. By promoting our local legends with our beer, we have had an amazingly large number of people learn (if only a small amount) that Wisconsin had a vibrant and ancient civilization.

Our web site is a tool for promoting our beer. It was never our intention to be a historical resource for every possible explanation of events. I think it would be unfair to expect it to be so.

If I may respond directly to your comments:

Rob's comment
Naming a beer after an archaeological site isn't necessarily a problem. But the writeups reveal a few problems:

1) Nowhere does the site refer to Indians or Native Americans, not to mention the Mound-Building or Mississippian culture that probably built Aztalan. This is stereotyping by omission. Who were the unnamed "people" the site refers to?

Answer: These people almost certainly were not Atlanteans or one of the lost tribes of Israel. Nor were they "ancient astronauts" who arrived in "chariots of the gods." They were undoubtedly paleo-Indians or Indians-the same people who gave birth to many of today's midwestern and southern tribes.

You are correct. No where does our site use the words Indians or Native Americans to describe the builders of Aztalan. Our description on that page was merely a repetition of what appears on our beer label. You may not appreciate this, but one can only fit so much information onto a beer label. Instead, we described the ancient city that far too many people are unaware. We interested people by making them wonder why they suddenly left. On our web site we actively encouraged people to learn more by visiting Aztalan State Park. The information at the park clearly indicates that it is the current thinking that Aztalan was the northernmost outpost of the Middle Mississippians. Contrary to your statement, there was never any suggestion that people from Antlantis built the city of Aztalan (please reread the site if you are unsure). I do not believe we are guilty of stereotyping by omission.

However, based upon your comments and concerns, we have added the following paragraph to our Aztalan Brown Ale page: "Aztalan is believed to have been the northernmost outpost of the Middle Mississippians. The residents of Aztalan likely moved north to Wisconsin from the large mound settlement at Cahokia, Illinois by following the Mississippi, Rock, and Crawfish rivers. Peoples of similar cultures built great pyramidal mounds and villages in Ocmulgee, Georgia, Moundsville, Alabama, Marietta, Ohio, Cahokia, Illinois, and Emerald Mound, Missippi."

Although I do wonder if the tone of your message might be offensive to those people that truly believe in the ancient land of Atlantis, or even for that matter "ancient astronauts."

Same comment as earlier... I wonder if your comments might offend believers of Atlantis. Your comment, "without knowing anything about them, I'd guess the stone tepees were natural formations arising from underwater volcanic vents" does show that you did not do enough research before commenting. I wonder if the same applies to you evaluation of our web site.

The information that appeared on the web site are three variations of the more popular explanations for the legends of the Pyramids of Rock Lake. I did not make them up but merely passed them on. For more information, I highly suggest you look these resources:

Joseph, Frank. The Lost Pyramids of Rock Lake, Wisconsin's Sunken Civilization. St. Paul: Galde Press, Inc., 1992.

Joseph, Frank. Atlantis in Wisconsin, New Revelations About Lost Sunken City. St. Paul: Galde Press, Inc., 1995.

Or visit Rock Lake Research

You might not agree with what they have to say, but they have an interesting analysis of ancient history and attempt to tie many things from the past together.

The three theories that are on our web site are: the residents of Atlantis built them; the residents of Aztalan built them; they are natural glacial rock deposits. I do not agree that printing that Atlanteans built them trivilizes Indian accomplishments... I also printed that the people of Aztalan might have built them.

3) Saying "May the Turtle's spirit guide you to happiness with a Headless Man Amber Alt" may mock, insult, or blaspheme the ancient Amerindians' religion and the religion of their descendants today. The mounds and the mythological figures they represent-Turtle and the Headless Man-probably were and still are sacred. If true, people, especially non-Indian people, shouldn't use and commercialize them.

It was never our intention to mock, insult or blaspheme any religion. And I do not believe we do so. However, these legends have been passed on through the generations not only through Native Americans, but also through those of us arriving later. These legends are part of our modern community and I believe they now belong to all of us, not just their distant decendants.

4) The Chief Blackhawk Porter may not be stereotypical since Tyranena makes no claim about Chief Blackhawk's attributes. But yes, his descendants may have a valid lawsuit. Whether they can win it or not is another matter.

We believe that Black Hawk was a great man and we have treated him with a great deal of respect on our beer label and web site. We encourage people to follow the Black Hawk War trail where they will learn what he and his people were put through. Black Hawk is an important historical figure in this area and you will find many businesses, islands and streets that bear his name.

As I said earlier, we have tried to let our area of the world know about its ancient past. I think we have sparked some interest and wonder amongst the people in southeastern Wisconsin. And we attempted to do it with the upmost respect.

I would appreciate any further comments you may have so that we may lessen and negative perceptions.

Kind regards,

Rob Larson, Founder
Tyranena Brewing Company LLC
1025 Owen Street
PO Box 736
Lake Mills, WI 53551
Phone: 920/648-8699
Email: rob@tyranena.com
Web: www.tyranena.com

Rob replies to Rob

Mr. Larson,

Some answers to the points you raise:

>> Our web site is a tool for promoting our beer. It was never our intention to be a historical resource for every possible explanation of events. I think it would be unfair to expect it to be so. <<

I don't expect you to be a historical resource for "every possible explanation." But you yourself said, "All of our beers are dedicated to local legends; historical people, places and events; and those things quintessential Wisconsin." You yourself said you want to inspire people to learn about Wisconsin's "vibrant and ancient civilization."

That raises the question of what that ancient civilization was. If you want people to learn the truth about Wisconsin, rather than some falsehood, it behooves you to present the leading theories responsibly and accurately. If your goal is to entertain and amuse without regard for the truth, at least say so.

>> You are correct. No where does our site use the words Indians or Native Americans to describe the builders of Aztalan. Our description on that page was merely a repetition of what appears on our beer label. <<

Your description on the Stone Tepee page purports to explain the three theories you've heard. Going by what you wrote originally, you hadn't heard a theory that mentions Native Americans by name.

>> You may not appreciate this, but one can only fit so much information onto a beer label. <<

This has nothing to do with what you can fit on your label. It has to do with your theories about the stone tepees presented in the Web's infinite space.

>> Instead, we described the ancient city that far too many people are unaware. We interested people by making them wonder why they suddenly left. On our web site we actively encouraged people to learn more by visiting Aztalan State Park. The information at the park clearly indicates that it is the current thinking that Aztalan was the northernmost outpost of the Middle Mississippians. <<

I don't believe I objected to any of those points. The only thing you could say I objected to is your pushing of the Atlantean theory, which you do by giving it prominence while not mentioning Native Americans by name.

Most people who visit your site won't be able to go to the park and get information. They'll go by what they read on your site. You've implied the Atlantean theory is No. 1 by its position.

>> Contrary to your statement, there was never any suggestion that people from Antlantis built the city of Aztalan (please reread the site if you are unsure). <<

You said the Atlanteans may have built "mounds" as well as the conical tepees at Tyranena (aka Rock Lake). You acknowledge that Aztalan site three miles away also has mounds. You don't identify the builders of Aztalan as a separate or known group of Indians.

You refer visitors to the Aztalan State Park for information on the stone tepees, suggesting a link between the sites. So I'd say your presentation is unclear. My response may have been unclear also, so I'll amend it.

>> "Aztalan is believed to have been the northernmost outpost of the Middle Mississippians. The residents of Aztalan likely moved north to Wisconsin from the large mound settlement at Cahokia, Illinois by following the Mississippi, Rock, and Crawfish rivers. Peoples of similar cultures built great pyramidal mounds and villages in Ocmulgee, Georgia, Moundsville, Alabama, Marietta, Ohio, Cahokia, Illinois, and Emerald Mound, Missippi." <<

Excellent. That helps to address several of my concerns. Now people have more of an inkling, although it's still not clear, that Indian people may have erected the stone tepees.

If you want to complete the connection, you can state clearly what you've implied. Namely, that the Middle Mississippians at Aztalan may have built the stone tepees for the same reason they built "great pyramidal mounds." Why? To fulfill their sacred beliefs, to reach for the sky—not to "sacrifice virgins."

If you haven't heard this theory before, you've heard it now. Feel free to add it to your list of theories.

>> Although I do wonder if the tone of your message might be offensive to those people that truly believe in the ancient land of Atlantis, or even for that matter "ancient astronauts." <<

This part of my site is dedicated to Native American stereotypes. People concerned about Atlantean stereotypes will have to go elsewhere for relief. (No doubt they're upset about the falsehoods the recent Disney movie perpetuated.)

Incidentally, I'm not Native American myself, and I don't know any Native people upset with your products. This is something I do on my own. I'm more interested in the broad spectrum of potential problems, not any particular problem.

>> Same comment as earlier... I wonder if your comments might offend believers of Atlantis. <<

You didn't cite the possibility that aliens from outer space may have erected the stone tepees, either. I wonder if they're planning their revenge even as we speak. <grin>

I hope you're kidding about offending Atlantis believers. It's a little hard to tell. If you're seriously worried about them, then I again have to wonder: Are you seriously suggesting Atlanteans as the leading theory for the stone tepees?

You're certainly defending the theory as if you're serious about it. I return once again to my original point. Anyone who offers an Atlantean theory without solid proof is slighting the probability that Native Americans were responsible.

>> Your comment, "without knowing anything about them, I'd guess the stone tepees were natural formations arising from underwater volcanic vents" does show that you did not do enough research before commenting. <<

The nomination is about what you present—on your label and your website—not the reality of the matter. You've offered theories to explain the conical structures on your label. I'm judging what you offered, not the historical facts, so that's all I need.

But if you want more facts and "legends," let's see what the Enjoy Central Wisconsin site has to say about the tepees:

According to legend, Aztec Indians originally named our lake "Tyranena" meaning sparkling waters.

Early Winnebago Indians shared their knowledge of "stone tepees" (pyramids) in Rock Lake, with the settlers.

Hmm. No mention of Atlanteans so far. No farfetched claims about any potential builders. But the notes do suggest two particular groups of Indians may have been involved. That's two more groups of Indians than you named on your site.

The Lake Mills Chamber of Commerce site adds this about the tepees:

Legend has it that in 1066, after suffering a long and terrible drought; Aztec Indians appealed to their gods for help by building (and using) sacrificial pyramids. Apparently their prayers were answers because great waters came to cover those pyramids and created a beautiful lake the Indians called "Tyranena" meaning sparkling water.

In the 1840's, Winnebago Indians shared their knowledge of the "stone teepees" (pyramids) in Rock Lake with the settlers.

Still no Atlanteans in sight. These notes mention sacrifice, but they don't equate religious sacrifice with the stereotypical "sacrificing virgins." Even the language—appealing to gods rather than gods demanding action—is unassuming.

Here's what the Rock Lake Research Society site you pointed me to says—starting with the ancient copper mining operations in upper Michigan:

Oral Native American history and lore deny any affiliation to the prehistoric mining operations, rather they cite 'ancient maritime foreigners' who mined the 'Red Rock '. All throughout North America there are archeological anomalies that point to pre-Columbian expeditions to the New World.

The copper culture starts in Asia Minor and Europe. Copper Mining operations start in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. Rock Lake Wisconsin area becomes a winter base camp below the heavy snow line for the foreign miners who call their site 'TYRANENA'. From 'TYRANENA' the traders travel down the Rock River to the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico and sail across the Atlantic back to North Africa and Europe with their copper.

I have no problem with the idea of ancient Europeans visiting the New World—even setting up mining operations in Michigan. But Europeans called Tyranenians aren't Atlanteans. Nor does this site make any claims about Atlanteans.

The 'TYRANENIANS' build pyramids, temples, shrines and tombs for their dead on the banks of a small lake or river.

TYRANENIANS pack up and go home, but safeguard their sacred site from local inhabitants by an artificial diversion of water from a nearby river.

Considering the researchers have barely begun defining the structures glimpsed through murky water, these claims seem highly speculative. Where's the evidence the so-called Tyranenians built temples, shrines, or tombs? Where's the evidence they diverted a river or anything? Not on this site.

Mayan miners, astronomer-priests remembering the ancient lore of the copper deposits mined centuries earlier in Northern Michigan, mount expeditions to establish control of the mineral for the copper based economy.

At least this site correctly credits the Maya rather than the Aztecs as being active in 900 AD. In fact, this site doesn't mention the Aztecs, who didn't become a leading Mesoamerican group until the 1400s.

Journalist and Author, Frank Joseph comes upon the article in an old issue of "Skin Diver" magazine about pyramids in a Wisconsin lake while researching for his book "Atlantis in Wisconsin". Decides he must look into this story.

As I suspected, Joseph isn't a scientist. He coined the idea of "Atlantis in Wisconsin" to sell books. I'd probably do the same if I were in his position. But that's marketing hype, not a valid "theory."

You're the one who pointed me to this site. You say you've listed the theories you've heard. Here are a couple more that aren't on your site. "Tyranenians" from Europe—not Atlanteans—erected the stone tepees. The Aztecs or Maya—not the unnamed people of Aztalan—erected them. That gives you five candidates—Tyranenians, Atlanteans, Maya, Aztecs, and unnamed people of Aztalan—as the builders.

That was part of my point, of course. "Atlantean" technology is unnecessary when the Maya built soaring pyramids, the Hohokam diverted rivers into canals, and the Cahokians raised huge mounds. If the Mississippian mound-builders had the ability to erect the stone tepees, or whatever's under the lake, they should be a prime suspect by name.

>> I wonder if the same applies to you evaluation of our web site. <<

Readers can and will judge for themselves, I'm sure.

>> The information that appeared on the web site are three variations of the more popular explanations for the legends of the Pyramids of Rock Lake. <<

Sounds like you need to add a few of the less popular theories. And what's your basis for stating the Atlantean theory is popular? One person's writing a book proves nothing about its popularity. Publishers will publish any wild theory if they think it'll sell.

>> You might not agree with what they have to say, but they have an interesting analysis of ancient history and attempt to tie many things from the past together. <<

I wouldn't mind an Atlantean theory if you listed the more plausible theories first, or put some sort of disclaimer on it. Whom exactly is this Atlantean theory popular with? Do the Rock Lake researchers or Aztalan State Park authorities offer Atlanteans as their primary suspect? Where did the secondary theory of sacrificing virgins come from: the researchers, the park, another book, or...?

Your own Pale Ale label, with its pointed cones, suggested my idea of volcanic vents. Now it seems the underwater structures may include a flat-topped pyramid, a wall, and a ring of stones. Looks like you need to update your label. What you show—remarkable cones only strange Atlanteans could've built—is part of the stereotype. When we see the "cones" are really common mounds or walls, we'll see the local Indians could've built them.

>> I do not agree that printing that Atlanteans built them trivilizes Indian accomplishments... I also printed that the people of Aztalan might have built them. <<

You wrote that the unnamed people of Aztalan may have built them...to sacrifice virgins to their demanding gods. I've also added to my posting recently. You may want to review it to make sure you're up-to-date.

>> It was never our intention to mock, insult or blaspheme any religion. And I do not believe we do so. <<

I'm sure it wasn't your intent. Few people ever intend to mock, insult, or blaspheme Native Americans. The whole mascot issue is one where white people insist, over and over, that they aren't dishonoring Natives. Oddly, most Native people feel differently.

>> However, these legends have been passed on through the generations not only through Native Americans, but also through those of us arriving later. These legends are part of our modern community and I believe they now belong to all of us, not just their distant decendants. <<

If you were a Christian and I put Jesus on a beer label to encourage drinking, would you say that's okay because he "belongs" to us all? The case is analogous.

>> Black Hawk is an important historical figure in this area and you will find many businesses, islands and streets that bear his name. <<

Commercial use is different from government use (islands and streets). But I didn't say your use of Blackhawk was wrong, so you don't have to explain it to me. However, Crazy Horse's descendants have sued over the use of his name on an alcoholic beverage, and I'm not sure how your situation is different. You may want to look into that.

I'll give you a hint of what Native people think in Crazy Horse's case. They have a history of cultural and genetic problems with alcohol. Anglo-Americans intentionally used alcohol to weaken or destroy their cultures—including Crazy Horse's Lakota and Blackhawk's Sauk culture. Now Anglo-Americans are using Crazy Horse and Blackhawk to sell alcohol. Some of the customers are the very Native people whom alcohol harmed and continues to harm.

Doesn't that strike you as ironic, at least? Using Indians to sell alcohol? Would you use, say, a famous black man to sell handcuffs? Nelson Mandela, perhaps?

I suppose it would be perfectly legal to use the Virgin Mary to sell douches, Albert Einstein to sell astrology charts, or Mahatma Gandhi to sell assault rifles. And you could do it respectfully, with long explanations about the many good qualities of each person. But would it be right? Or would the idea be conceptually flawed no matter how respectfully you did it?

I leave you to think about that.

>> I would appreciate any further comments you may have so that we may lessen and negative perceptions. <<

You've got them! I hope they've helped.

Rob Schmidt
Publisher
PEACE PARTY

Another exchange with Halsted
>> I'm getting so intrigued with the connections and following them up I may never finish this. I did a brief interview with our state archaelogist here who completely debunks the this transatlantic copper trade in the 3 millenium BC and says the Stone Tepee's are just geological rock formations completely consistent with the area's geology. <<

Interesting. I'm willing to believe that Europeans came over before recorded history, as I said. I'm also willing to believe unknown Native cultures mined the copper for whatever reasons and then disappeared. As with the Nazca lines in South America, there have been several cases of Native people doing remarkable things archaeologists thought they couldn't do. The people of Chaco Canyon supposedly dragged trees 60 miles to build their cities, for instance.

The whole Chariot of the Gods mentality is an implicit slam against non-Western cultures from Egypt to historic times. "They couldn't have done these amazing things, so aliens must've helped them." In every case so far—the pyramids, Stonehenge, Easter Island—scientists have established how the local people did supposedly impossible tasks.

I'm glad to see my volcanic vent/natural formation theory still has life. When the Rock Lake researchers talked about finding a wall and a ring of stones, I assumed they'd found a real archaeological site. It wouldn't surprise me if the "ruins" and "symbols" they've spotted turned out to be natural occurrences.

>> He also echoes your concern about research like this that tries to people Native American historian with Eurpopean actors who simply were not part of the scene. <<

Exactly. It's stereotypical thinking. I don't claim this is a life-threatening matter, or even something people should lose sleep over—although Rob Larson may be worried about his Blackhawk Porter. I'm just documenting our culture's ongoing pattern of slighting indigenous people.

>> You know I'm sure that it was Crazy Horses descendants and the Sioux tribe who won the suit against Stroh's on Crazy Horse Malt Liquor. <<

Probably. I haven't followed that case too closely. So many issues, so little time. <g>

Rob

The facts on Aztalan State Park
Here's the information that was conspicuously missing from the Tyranena website. Note that there's no mention whatsoever of Atlanteans.

Preserving a civilization

Aztalan State Park could develop into major visitor site

By TOM HEINEN

Posted: June 9, 2006

Aztalan — Stand atop the pyramidal platform mound at Aztalan State Park near dawn, peer through the mists of time and imagine an exotically ornamented chief welcoming the rising sun with outstretched arms and sacred rituals. Advertisement

At first blush, the scene seems more reminiscent of Aztecs or Incas than of North American Indians. That's what the first Anglo to map and name it thought when he saw the ruins in 1837.

But the ancient site's mounds and mysteries are homegrown.

Few motorists know any of this as they speed along I-94 near Lake Mills between Milwaukee and Madison. Many associate the name Aztalan with the motorcyclists they glimpse on the dirt motocross trails at Aztalan Cycle Park on private land next to the freeway, about three miles north of the site.

All of that could change.

The Friends of Aztalan State Park is launching a $1 million fund drive this month to help build a visitors' center with interpretive displays that could make what is touted as Wisconsin's premier archaeological site come alive. A park master plan approved in 2003 estimates 400,000 or more visitors could be drawn each year by a center and other improvements.

Aztalan's heavily fortified, well-planned town of 350 to 500 Indians was the northernmost outpost of what is known as the Mississippian Indian civilization. The town arose about 1050 amid the existing Woodland Indians and was abandoned by about 1250, for reasons still unknown.

Follow the archaeological trail down to Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site in southern Illinois, about eight miles from St. Louis, Mo., and you encounter the ruins of a Mississippian city that once supported 10,000 to 15,000 people.

Its main platform mound alone is so huge that its upper level still stands 100 feet above the surrounding plaza, and its base takes up at least 14 acres. Remains of at least five "woodhenges" — circular placements of poles that used the sun to determine religiously and agriculturally important things such as equinoxes and solstices — have been found.

Cahokia's interpretive center — which includes an audio-visual show and a large, walk-through diorama — drew 500,000 to 600,000 visitors annually after opening in 1989, said Mark Esarey, the site's manager. The count now ranges from about 325,000 to 425,000, depending on the hours of operation.

Cahokia was the center of a Mississippian culture that arose with the cultivation of corn and flourished from about 1000 into the 1600s, spreading south to the Gulf of Mexico and southeast to North Carolina, Georgia and northern Florida, said Robert Birmingham, retired Wisconsin state archaeologist, president of the Friends of Aztalan and co-author of a new book, "Aztalan: Mysteries of an Ancient Indian Town."

"I think that the Mississippian civilization is comparable to the great civilizations around the world," said Birmingham, who lectures at the University of Wisconsin-Waukesha. "They involved themselves in monumental architecture. They obviously had very sophisticated astronomical and engineering skills. They had very complex social and religious structures. They had a large warrior society that was equivalent to standing armies. Additionally, some of the art of the Mississippians, I think, is every bit as beautiful and intricate as many of the civilizations in the rest of the world."

What they did not have was a written language or a unified empire under one king. Fortified towns and cities were controlled by chiefs. Warfare and conflict were major themes of myth, ritual and art, according to Birmingham and the book "Hero, Hawk, and Open Hand: American Indian Art of the Ancient Midwest and South."

"The atmosphere here would have been very much like in medieval England or France: a lot of feudal lords competing for any number of reasons, the developing of young men into a very formalized warrior status," Birmingham said.

The four-phase master plan for Aztalan envisions $9 million in improvements, including a $5 million visitor center. Beyond that, it calls for the purchase of adjacent farmland to preserve a buffer for the site.

That's a lot for a state park that almost lost the salary for Tom Davies, its site manager and lone employee, to budget cuts less than two years ago. He has trouble keeping the grass cut and covering other costs with an $11,000 operating budget.

With the Department of Natural Resources getting just $9 million every two years from its stewardship fund for park improvements, the entire master plan isn't likely to be implemented.

But the DNR is on schedule to spend about $110,000 for archaeological surveys, a layout survey and a design report for a visitors' center in the 2007-'09 budget cycle, said Peter Biermeier, a DNR section chief. And about $280,000 for a relocated park entrance, a boardwalk, trail improvements and a footbridge over the Crawfish River to reach inaccessible parkland is doable in 2009-'11, he said.

A visitors' center is further off. It might get moved up if the Friends group raises $1 million, Biermeier said. The chances of the state paying $4 million for a center are slim, but if costs are lowered or $3 million in private money is raised, dynamics change, he said.

American Indians thought the master plan respected the land and their ancestors, said Barbara Gross, a management consultant and Ojibwe. She sought input for the plan from the Great Lakes Inter-tribal Council and Ho-Chunk Nation leaders, whose ancestral territory includes the site. Some Ho-Chunk believe they are descendants of the Mississippians' interaction with Woodland Indians, she said.

Why the Mississippian culture disappeared from the Midwest by the 1400s remains a mystery. But the culture was still so active in the South and Southeast that Spanish conquistador Hernando DeSoto's chroniclers and early French explorers described the Indians' customs and beliefs. Some bearers of that culture include the Creek, Natchez, Chickasaw, Choctaw, Cherokee, Alabama and Caddo Indians, Birmingham said.

"The Mississippians would be best characterized as living in a theocracy," Birmingham said. "Individuals would go through all kinds of rituals and ceremonies every day. There was a seamless belief between the physical and supernatural worlds."

Mississippians believed in a layered cosmos with a celestial "above world," a "middle world" where everyday life occurred, and a "beneath world" that lay under the waters, said James Brown, a Northwestern University anthropologist.

"The mounds were, in a sense, conduits from this world and the earth we stand on to the upper world," Brown said.

The site at Aztalan along the Crawfish River reflects that cosmology. The land rises from the river to a residential area, to a ceremonial plaza where religious rituals were held, to the main mound and high ground where the chief and elites lived. A series of conical mounds nearby, believed to be sites of ceremonial poles, lead to a mound where the remains of a woman known as "the princess" were found. Elaborately decorated with hundreds of shell beads, some from the Gulf of Mexico, she was treated with great honor.

Archaeological excavations revealed that the 21-acre town was enclosed by massive walls made of poles driven into the ground, intertwined with branches, covered with clay and bolstered by 32 bastions, or watchtowers. Interior walls separated the residential, plaza and elite zones.

The main platform mound, where the chief's house may have been, rises 16 feet at the site's southwest corner on a 130-foot-by-185-foot base. On a ridge, it looks higher from the plaza. A mound that had a mortuary structure is at the northwest end.

Once partially smoothed over by farming, the main mound has been restored. And parts of the stockade have been partially reconstructed.

From the June 10, 2006 editions of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel

Related links
Uncivilized Indians
Drunken Indians

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