Another response to a Stereotype of the Month Entry:  Mardi Gras Indians:

>> The idea that the authors of this website can get an accurate idea of what "Mardi Gras Indians" are without seeing them is ridicolous. You took one Natives opinion without even verifying your facts. <<

I took one Native woman's opinion who lives in New Orleans, is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture, and has thought about the Mardi Gras Indians for years. I also visited the Mardi Gras Indian site, read it in its entirety, and applied my own extensive knowledge of Indian stereotyping. That's more than enough work for a single stereotype entry.

In audition to what my contact has seen in person for years, I saw the Mardi Gras Indians on their website. Their appearance is what I'm judging, so all I need to see for that is their appearance. Unless the photography is flawed, in person they'll look exactly as they do in the photographs.

>> Could I say that I knew what a Choctaw was just from word of mouth? No, of course not. <<

Sure you could. You might or might not be correct, but you can say whatever you want.

More important, my posting comes from a Native woman who is related to the Choctaw and has lived near among them for years. Her claims aren't "word of mouth," they're first-person expert testimony.

>> This article contributes to Native stereotypes. <<

It contributes to people's understanding of Native stereotypes, yes.

>> The idea that anything with feathers and beads is patented by Natives is an insult to every indigenous people on the face of this planet. <<

I don't believe I offered that idea. If the non-Indians who wear feathers and beads want to call themselves the Mardi Gras Indigenous People, I wouldn't have listed them as an Indian stereotype. But they're calling themselves Indians by their choice. They're portraying the particular indigenous people known as "Indians" by wearing exotic feathers and beads and dancing exotically. That's a stereotype and I listed it as such.

>> You are applying outside standards to judge a culture that you do not belong to. <<

I didn't judge the culture, I judged the stereotype. A stereotype usually occurs in the mainstream culture, not in the specific subculture being stereotyped. Since I'm a member of the mainstream culture in question, I'm qualified to judge how we stereotype people of other cultures and subcultures.

>> This is the same thing that you complain (and rightly so) that others do to Natives. <<

Don't think so.

>> So that makes you a part of the problem. <<

Don't think so, again. Sorry, your opinion doesn't make it so. My opinion is different.

>> If you are a proponent of accuracy then stop imitating people from India and calling yourself Indian. <<

I haven't called myself Indian because I'm a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant (WASP). I use the terms Indians and Native Americans interchangeably because the people themselves use the words interchangeably. If someone is confused whether an "Indian" comes from India or from North America, I'm glad to resolve the person's confusion.

>> Stop pretending that you have a right to call yourself Indian if you want "Mardi Gras Indians" to feel they don't have a right to do the same thing. <<

Again, I haven't called myself Indian. You're inventing charges that have no relevance.

The Mardi Gras Indians have the right to call themselves whatever they want. I didn't dispute their rights. What I disputed is how they exercise their rights, by choosing their appearance and actions. Because these things are stereotypical.

>> Making "Mardi Gras Indians" sound like animals is the same thing that many Whites did to justify stereotyping them. This is the actions that you are imitating. <<

Making them sound like animals? Now I don't know what you're talking about.

>> Please do not turn away those who think you have something valid to say by leaving this blatantly innaccurate on your site. <<

I'm not aware of having turned away anyone. Some people may disagree with some of my choices, but that's bound to happen if you do something that's not plain vanilla.

In fact, if people get a little upset, that's probably good. It means something has challenged their preconceived notions, which is a worthy accomplishment.

>> When you stereotype other minorities you really lose your validity when you claim that others shouldn't do it. <<

I haven't stereotyped other minorities, so this point is irrelevant. One minority has stereotyped another and I've noted that fact.

>> Don't claim to know what it means to be a Native in Louisiana without at least giving us (your people) the right to define ourselves first. <<

I haven't claimed I know what it means to be Native in Louisiana. My New Orleans source and the Mardi Gras Indians' own website confirmed that the Mardi Gras Indians aren't claiming to be real Indians. They're dressing up as Indians and I'd said their appearance and actions are stereotypical.

>> We are all family and we must try not to fall into the same patterns as those who have harmed us...or we will then become victims of ourselves...and then they will have truly won once and for all. <<

Are you sure I'm the same family as you? <g>

As far as I can tell, you haven't challenged the stereotypes themselves. You've challenged my right to point them out. I've heard your challenge and I have to rule against it. Sorry about that.

The debate continues....
>> Of course you have the right to be prejudiced by the limited exposure you admit to having about this subject if you choose to. <<

I don't consider "one Native woman's opinion who lives in New Orleans [and] is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture" to be limited exposure. You've given me no reason to think she knows less about the Mardi Gras Indians than you do. If you believe the Mardi Gras Indians' appearance and behavior accurately represents a genuine Native American culture, please provide the evidence now. Your unsubstantiated claims sound a little hollow.

Nor does your silly assertion that I'm prejudiced make it so. I've identified exactly the stereotypes I'm talking about and why they're stereotypes. You've done nothing except assert you know better without evidence or justification. Since you're trying to contradict my pages of evidence with nothing but hot air, forgive me if I'm less than mortified.

My further posting on the Yellow Pocahontas tribe apparently shifted your position, but it didn't change my position or the Native woman's one bit. Isn't that interesting? Perhaps we know more about the subject than you do, eh?

>> I am merely pointing out why it is wrong to do so. <<

No, you've asserted it's wrong without justification for doing so. All your hot air comes down to the claim that someone who doesn't belong to a culture can't judge if parts of the culture are stereotypical. Wrong. I don't have to be black to know that "Amos 'n' Andy" stereotyped black people, and I don't have to be Native or black to recognize the Mardi Gras Indians' stereotyping.

>> To say that all Native Americans have to look a certain way to be Native instead of "wannabee Natives" is just your opinion since it is not based on any facts. <<

Since I didn't say that, it's irrelevant. Your opinion about a charge you made up isn't just irrelevant, it's idiotic.

Apparently, you're under the impression that the Mardi Gras Indians are real Indians. Too bad neither their own website nor the article on them made that claim. It apparently is "just your opinion" that Mardi Gras Indians are real Indians and not non-Indians who are "honoring" real Indians.

Since you've given me no reason to change my position, I'll merely repeat it for effect:

If the non-Indians who wear feathers and beads want to call themselves the Mardi Gras Indigenous People, I wouldn't have listed them as an Indian stereotype. But they're calling themselves Indians by their choice. They're portraying the particular indigenous people known as "Indians" by wearing exotic feathers and beads and dancing exotically. That's a stereotype and I listed it as such.

>> I know that you understand that I was making a statement about how you did not put enough effort into finding out the truth to be able to make your article believable. <<

In your opinion, you mean. Luckily, my effort is based on one Native woman's opinion who lives in New Orleans and is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture. When you want to address that point rather than duck it, as you've done, maybe you'll get somewhere. So far, you're going nowhere fast.

>> No, it contributes to the stereotypical belief that it is okay to call Native Americans by the term "Indian". <<

Since most Native people accept the term "Indian" and use it interchangeably with "Native American," I do the same. I've talked to hundreds of Native people to confirm this point. The names of such major organizations as the American Indian Movement, the National Congress of the American Indian, and the Indian Country Today newspaper—all named and run by Indians—also confirm this point.

If your goal is to prove how much more I know about present-day Indian people and culture than you do, you're doing a great job. Keep up the good work.

>> This is a part of the European practice of renaming and rediscovering already named and already discovered people and places. <<

Tell it to the two million Indian people who use the term "Indian," not me. Start with Sherman Alexie, who has written books titled Indian Killer and The Toughest Indian in the World. If you need any more examples of Indians calling themselves Indians, just let me know.

>> You say that you can tell that these people want to be Native Americans by looking at them. <<

No, I can tell that these people are stereotyping Indians by their use of stereotypical beads and feathers. Try to stick to my claims rather than inventing straw-man claims of your own.

>> You are claiming that this form of dress is some unique part of "Indian" culture. <<

Nope, I'm claiming it's an example of an Indian stereotype. I'm not wasting my time debating "claims" you've invented to support your ridiculous arguments.

>> I am explaining that every group of people at some point in time used feathers or beads (or both) to decorate themselves. <<

So what? Again, if you don't understand the concept of stereotyping, look it up in a dictionary. Indian people had chiefs and used tipis too—but portraying only those aspects of Indian culture stereotypes the culture.

>> These people you refer to as "Mardi Gras Indians" share the same heritage as those who you feel qualify as "Indians" (even though they are not from India). <<

A few of them may share the same heritage. Most of them don't. Again, I refer you to their own website, the article, and the Native woman's expert opinion, plus the supporting evidence I found on a second website. Your un-expert opinion that they "share the same heritage" doesn't particularly interest me.

Incidentally, your complaint about the word "Indians" is ludicrous. If you think I'm stereotyping Indians by calling them Indians, you don't understand what stereotyping means. No one thinks Native people are from India (or not from India) based on the word "Indian."

More important, the people we're talking about call themselves "Mardi Gras Indians." These people are much more at fault for using the term "Indians" repeatedly over many decades. If they're using the term and you consider it stereotypical, you've just proved their stereotypical behavior, thank you very much. If you want to validate any more of their stereotypes, be my guest.

>> To say that some descendants of Native Americans are "wannabee Indians" and others are bona fide "Indians" is to expose your own prejudice against certain ethnic groups. <<

Which descendants? A few of them may share the same heritage. Most of them don't. Again, I refer you to their own website, the article, and the Native woman's expert opinion, plus the supporting evidence I found on a second website. Your un-expert opinion that they "share the same heritage" doesn't particularly interest me.

Yes, I'm "prejudiced" against ethnic groups who stereotype other ethnic groups in the name of "honoring" them. What I've "exposed" is one Native woman's "prejudice" who lives in New Orleans and is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture. Feel free to address the point.

>> You claim "they are portraying the particular indigenous people known as Indians". Well I guess that shows another fact you have not yet comprehended. Native Americans are not one particular indigenous group of people. They are many distinct and separate groups of indigenous people who lived on this continent and the one below it. <<

No, it shows you have a problem reading the English language. You quoted my words above. Check again carefully and tell me where you see the word "group."

I'll give you a hint: I didn't use the word "group," I used the word "people." Your claim is wrong on the face of it. When you find me saying all Indians belong to one "group," feel free to challenge me on it. Until then, you're wasting my time with false, inane charges that have no basis in reality.

But to address your made-up charge: The distinct and separate groups of Native Americans together form one large group of Native Americans, just as distinct and separate groups of Caucasians and Negroes and Asians form large overall groups of Caucasians and Negroes and Asians. Many levels of groups and subgroups can exist simultaneously, so spare me these semantic games.

>> If you did absolutely any in depth research you would realize this. <<

You're beginning to bore me with your silly insults. I've read 50 or more books on Native America and a decade's worth of several Indian newspapers. I've visited dozens of reservations, attended powwows, volunteered at Native functions, and the proverbial much more. How about you? Have you done half or even a quarter of that much? List all your sources and let's compare them. I'll match my knowledge of Native people and culture against yours any day.

>> Because they are all separate and distinct neighbors there is no one single way of expressing who they are.

If you have any evidence whatsoever that the Choctaw, Creek, Chickasaw, or other Southern tribes wore costumes like those of the Mardi Gras Indians, please present it. Your content-free rhetoric is woefully transparent. Stop disagreeing with everything I say and start proving your own case, if you can. Put up or shut up.

>> Therefore without understanding how the other groups of Native American indigenous people in this area look and dress and express themselves, you can't accurately say whether or not these people look like bona fide Natives or "wannabee Indians". <<

Luckily, I didn't rely on my understanding. I relied on the understanding of one Native woman who lives in New Orleans and is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture. Feel free to address the point.

>> No, you judged the culture. <<

For starters, the Native woman who lives in New Orleans and is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture did the so-called "judging." Feel free to address the point. What I did is compare the Mardi Gras Indians' stereotypical costumes and behavior to my knowledge of real Indian clothing and behavior.

>> Well, if how a group of people look isn't a part of their culture, what is it? <<

It's part of their culture but it's not part of any real Indians' culture. And I judged the disparity between the two. I didn't judge anything about either particular culture.

To give you an analogy that you can understand, I can look at a red widget and a blue widget and tell they're different without knowing the slightest thing about their weight, composition, manufacture, or any other "hidden" trait. What I'm judging is the difference between red and blue, not red or blue. Or anything else.

>> Look up the meaning of culture and then answer that question. <<

No, I'm not wasting my time on your silly questions. You look up the meaning if you don't know it and spend your time transcribing it for us. I've been discussing cultural questions for 20+ years and don't need to play these games with someone less knowledgeable than I am.

>> Actually, the occurance of stereotyping occurs equally amongst minority and majority groups. If you read any anthropological or sociological material on the subject you will see that this is true. <<

"Equally"? I don't know about that, and I'm pretty sure you can't prove it. But yes, it does occur among both minority and majority groups.

>> Every one is qualified to judge how they stereotype a culture but only some one who researches the subject is qualified to judge how people tend to stereotype others. <<

I've published several articles about Native people in major periodicals and several more in minor ones and on websites. I've also published my own newsletter on Indians and stereotyping. What have you done that compares to that? Start listing your credentials now.

More important, what have you done that compares to one Native woman's opinion who lives in New Orleans and is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture? Feel free to address the point if you can.

>> I sure don't see you disproving it either. <<

I took one Native woman's opinion who lives in New Orleans, is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture, and has thought about the Mardi Gras Indians for years. I also visited the Mardi Gras Indian site, read it in its entirety, and applied my own extensive knowledge of Indian stereotyping. That's more than enough work for a single stereotype entry.

>> I guess that's because it is not your intentions to actually help Native Americans. <<

Rather than sharing your fantasies about what you think I intend, go to my fans page and read what a few dozen people have said after reading my writing. The list of satisfied customers is long and growing.

Incidentally, one of my unofficial advisors is a black Indian with ancestors in both groups. She says, "I love the way you keep up with things and encourage us to do so also." Other comments from black supporters include:

So much for my causing divisions between minorities or turning minority people away.

>> Instead it seems that you merely want to add to the misunderstanding that some people have about other minority groups. <<

It seems you want to attack and insult with your content-free messages. Let me repeat that my posting is based on one Native woman's testimony who lives in New Orleans and is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture. I await your proof that you know more than she does.

>> That's why you refuse to use any facts to verify your writing. <<

What facts do I need? Are you so ignorant that you don't know wearing feathers and headdresses are Indian stereotypes? Go read a primer on the basic Indian stereotypes and then get back to me. My job isn't to teach you the ABCs of stereotyping.

But you seem to need help desperately, so I'll give you a break. Here's a quote from my site: "Few of us...wore feather bonnets." Source: The Basic Indian Stereotypes. Author: Joseph Riverwind (Taino), who grew up among Southern tribes.

Do many or few of the Mardi Gras Indians wear feather bonnets? Many? Then they're stereotyping real Indians.

>> You can't say you visited THE "Mardi Gras Indians" website BECAUSE THERE IS NO OFFICIAL MARDI GRAS INDIAN WEBSITE. <<

More stupid semantics. I visited the site of one group who calls themselves "Mardi Gras Indians." The posting on my site specifically refers to them and their site, not to anyone else in the world who calls themselves "Mardi Gras Indians."

>> I would think that as a webmaster you'd know the difference between one persons view of them and the actual truth about them. <<

I'm waiting for you to tell me the "actual truth," with supporting evidence, rather than to continue braying how much more you know than one Native woman who lives in New Orleans and is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture. Feel free to address the point.

>> It is your lack of facts to back up your opinion that makes you a part of the problem. <<

My opinion is secondary to that of one Native woman who lives in New Orleans and is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture. Feel free to address the point. As for my facts, my list is infinitely longer than yours is, since you've yet to provide a single fact on the Mardi Gras Indians.

>> You admit that what you write is purely opinion in this e-mail <<

Wow, you'd really better brush up on your reading skills. Here's what I've "admitted":

I took one Native woman's opinion who lives in New Orleans, is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture, and has thought about the Mardi Gras Indians for years. I also visited the Mardi Gras Indian site, read it in its entirety, and applied my own extensive knowledge of Indian stereotyping. That's more than enough work for a single stereotype entry.

When you find a dictionary that equates "purely opinion" with "extensive knowledge," go ahead and quote it to me. Until then, you're wasting my time with your foolish nonsense.

>> I guess you don't have the good ethics it would take to admit that on your website where you present such writing as fact. <<

Says the woman with the content-free messages. Who doesn't even know that most Indian people call themselves Indians. Ho-hum.

>> I was also glad to resolve your confusion about the people you continue to refer to as "Indians". <<

There wasn't any confusion to resolve except yours. I hope I've helped explain something that most novices know about "Native American" and "Indian"—that the terms are interchangeable.

>> If wanted to do what is right then you would refer to these people by the name that they gave themselves instead of the one that Europeans gave them and then forced them to accept. <<

I refer to them by the name(s) they use to refer to themselves. You can use whatever names you choose, but don't bother lecturing me about something you apparently don't understand.

>> The fact is relevant that if Natives are not from India but call themselves "Indian" then it is hypocrisy to say that another group of people who are not from India should not call themselves "Indian". Do I need to make it any simpler to understand than that? <<

Your point is not only irrelevant, it's stupid. Because real Indians call themselves "Indian," you think that justifies the Mardi Gras Indians calling themselves "Indians" also? You can't even decide whether the Mardi Gras Indians 1) are real Indians by birthright, or 2) have the moral right to call themselves Indians because the name is equally inaccurate for real Indians and Mardi Gras Indians. Which is it going to be, scenario #1 or #2? Make up your mind.

>> If you look up the meaning of stereotype <<

That isn't necessary since I've been researching and writing about Native stereotypes for a decade. When you've done the same, you can talk to me about how much you think you know about the subject.

>> then you would realize that the fact that some one may actually look like the way some other group of people have stereotyped them, this does not mean that there is anything that the person did wrong. <<

Wow, thanks for that deep insight. Next thing you know, you'll be telling me some Indians were warriors...were chiefs...did wear headdresses...did live in tipis...etc. Oops, too late. I already addressed that point above.

Did some Indians also call their tribe the Yellow Pocahontas Tribe, and themselves Wild Men and Spy Boys? Go ahead and address the point, or admit you can't. These terms are all stereotypical and I've pointed that out—no more and no less.

>> There is nothing wrong with the behavior that has been stereotyped. What is wrong is the way that the onlookers view such activities. <<

You continue to apply the words "right" and "wrong" as if I care. I've noted the stereotypes, period.

>> I am referring to the way you portrayed them as being a violent group of people who probably would just intimidate some one for voicing their opinion about them WITHOUT ANY PROOF THAT IT WAS ANYTHING BUT HEARSAY. <<

The person who "portrayed" them is one Native woman who lives in New Orleans, is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture, and has thought about the Mardi Gras Indians for years. The article I posted verified this Native woman's expert opinion by noting how the Yellow Pocahontas tribe had "Wild Men" and "Spy Boys" who invaded neighboring tribes' turf. Apparently you were ignorant of these practices, since you called them hearsay and tried to dispute them. Luckily, my Native source knew better, and I've posted evidence to confirm her testimony.

The "savage" names and behavior are pure stereotypes. As are the chants, war whoops, and feather headdresses. I've noted these stereotypes for what they are. No more and no less, again.

>> I know that you are not aware of having turned some Native Americans away from your site so that is why I informed you. <<

What a pathetic joke. How would you know my site has turned some Native Americans away? Go ahead and justify that claim too. (This ought to be good.)

Actually, my site traffic continues to increase. If my Mardi Gras posting is turning people away—a claim you can't come close to proving—my postings in general are drawing people in. I think I'll continue my posting practices and continue watching my traffic increase.

>> If you don't change your attitude towards us as a people and reflect that in your website, you will just continue to show that you are just a pretender—some one masquerading as a protector of indigenous people. <<

I've never called myself a "protector of indigenous people." You keep fabricating claims and I'll keep pointing out your fabrications.

"Us" who? I don't know who you are or what group(s) you represent. All I know is that the Mardi Gras Indians claim to be "honoring" Indians—i.e., another culture, not their own culture. Feel free to address the point if you can.

As for being a pretender, read what fans, reviewers, educators, and others have said about my work. Your opinion doesn't matter one whit compared to theirs.

>> If making some one upset is a good thing, then you are contradicting yourself. <<

How so? Again, your saying so doesn't make it so. That claim would be contradictory only if I claimed upsetting people was a bad thing. Feel free to supply a quote to that effect if you have one. Again, put up or shut up.

>> Your site voices complaints about "Mardi Gras Indians" so with your latest logic that would mean that what they are doing is a worthy accomplishment. <<

My latest logic is the same logic I've used all along. It's the logic that keeps increasing my site traffic and winning me plaudits from visitors.

As for the Mardi Gras Indians...yes, if their stereotypical behavior causes people to question them and seek information on how real Indians behave, their stereotypical behavior has accomplished something.

>> If you had pure motives you would open up your heart and examine your actions instead of being oblivious to the people you victimize by spreading innaccurate information about. <<

I examine my actions constantly, as you'd know if you read some of the many dialogs on my site. Few people in the world debate their own actions as much as I do. And to repeat, the people I supposedly "victimize" are applauding my actions. Rather than continue making ignorant claims, read the evidence on my site.

If you had pure motives, you'd stop inventing charges that have nothing to do with what I've said and start addressing my actual claims. The claims, let me repeat, stemming from a Native woman who lives in New Orleans, is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture, and has thought about the Mardi Gras Indians for years. Feel free to address the point.

>> When people on reservations go to pow wows and perform, they are dressing up as Native Americans too. <<

They're dressing up in authentic clothing from their own tribes, for the most part. I believe most Native people would consider it wrong to dress up and pretend to be a member of another tribe.

>> In case you haven't noticed, no one still dresses in feathers and beads and head peices every day. When reservation members dress up and put on their outfits they are acting stereotypically but that doesn't mean that they are doing something wrong. <<

Their beads and feathers are an authentic part of a real Indian culture—namely, their own culture. If they tried to dress up as West African dancers, and wore anything but authentic West African clothing, I'd say they were stereotyping West African culture. Just as the Mardi Gras Indians, with their West African-derived costumes, are stereotyping Indian cultures.

>> It is stereotypical to say that all rich people in America are Republicans. That doesn't mean it is wrong for some one who is rich to be a Republican, does it? Of course not. <<

No, but if a group of people dressed as their idea of rich people and claimed they were Republicans, it would be stereotypical. Same as when the "Mardi Gras Indians" dress as their idea of Indians and pretend they're Choctaws, Creeks, or Chickasaws.

>> Oh yes, I am quite sure. If you ever study mitochondrial DNA you will find out that we are indeed family. <<

I know all about the unity of races. I've posted on it at Why Spawn Isn't Black.

But your point, such as it is, depends on how you define "family." The standard definition is "the body of persons who live in one house, and under one head; a household." Another semantic game; another waste of time.

>> I never challenged your right to put it out. I have always recognized every one's right to be wrong. <<

Good. Take a look in the mirror. Enjoy the view.

>> I have only tried to show you how you could go about correcting the wrong you committed. <<

I haven't committed any "wrong," so there's nothing to correct. But you may want to correct your own massive confusion. First, decide if you're claiming the Mardi Gras Indians belong to a real Indian culture or a culture "honoring" a real Indian culture—as the Mardi Gras Indians themselves have claimed. Second, present the evidence that other Native members of this real culture dress up in showgirl-style costumes and call themselves the Yellow Pocahontas tribe, Wild Men, or Spy Boys. Third, explain why the Mardi Gras Indians are stereotyping themselves by using the term "Indians," which you deem stereotypical.

Good luck. Judging by your content-free messages so far, I don't think you'll be able to touch even one of these arguments. But go ahead and try.

>> I like to educate people about Native Americans as much as possible <<

Physician, heal thyself. Your ignorance about how Native people embrace the term "Indian" is the best evidence so far of who's the teacher and who's the student.

>> even if my heart tells me that they will never really understand. <<

Try using your head for once. It might help.

Given your airy messages, there's not much to understand. As far as I can tell, you haven't challenged the stereotyping itself. You've challenged my right to point it out. I've heard your challenge and I have to rule against it. Sorry about that.

>> I will pray for you. <<

Did your prayers work? Apparently not, since I still think people who dress up in silly costumes and pretend to be Indians are stereotyping real Native people and culture.

I suggest you pray for yourself, since you're the one who arrogantly thinks she knows more than a Native woman who lives in New Orleans, is extremely knowledgeable about Indian history and culture, and has thought about the Mardi Gras Indians for years. Your conceit is little short of astounding.

The debate grows tedious....
>> I've never heard any one tell me how they determine who are "genuine indians" and who are not. <<

The people in the article said they were honoring Indians. They weren't claiming to be Indians or descended from Indians themselves.

>> You also seem to overlook the aspects of "Mardi Gras Indians" that are not considered interesting to the media. <<

I'm not trying to paint an overall picture of the Mardi Gras Indians. I'm pointing out specific stereotypes.

>> The "extended family" communal sharing is a rather important fact that most articles do not mention. <<

Okay. If that's true, it doesn't contradict the stereotypes I mentioned. I didn't mention the "communal sharing" or anything like that because it's not part of the stereotype. Nowhere did I say their behavior was 100% stereotypical. All I said was these specific things are stereotypical.

>> In your article you say that if they are honoring Native heritage they should acknowledge all aspects of Native culture. Well, not all Natives were farmers nor did they all have cosmological beliefs. <<

Yes, I know that—although I question the idea that any people lack at least some cosmological beliefs. But the Mardi Gras Indians are supposedly honoring a specific group of Indians. Did they research whether the specific tribes in the New Orleans area had chiefs or "wild men," or wore elaborate feather costumes? The problem is theirs for portraying the specific Indians of the New Orleans area using general stereotypes.

>> Because they were complex people, it is impossible to ever represent them all. <<

I don't want the Mardi Gras Indians to represent "all Indians." I want them to represent whichever Indians they're supposedly honoring accurately. If they can't do it without using false bits of culture—i.e., stereotypes—I'm going to call them on it. As I have.

>> You present them as carefree revelers in pretty outfits when you really have not delved into the matter enough to understand what life is really like for them. <<

I don't need to know what life is really like for them. All I need to know is whether their superficial attributes—the costumes, the dances, the names, etc.—match those of the people they're supposedly honoring. Not only do I have the testimony of a Native woman, but I know from my own research that no Indians wore costumes like those of the Mardi Gras "Indians."

>> The fact that you think their actions revolve around the celebration of Mardi Gras shows that you've only read articles that pertain to their Mardi Gras traditions. <<

Again, I don't need to know how they behave when they're not stereotyping Indians. I'm judging the stereotypes alone.

>> To try and define "real Indian culture" is to diminish the wide variety of lifestyles held by the MANY DIFFERENT groups that make up Native Americans. <<

I've never heard of any Indian group that had people designated as "wild men" or wore costumes like those in the pictures. I sure as heck know no tribe was called the Yellow Pocahontas Tribe. These are stereotypes and I've labeled them as such.

>> Don't get confused by the southern lingo. When a word has such substantial meaning for a group of people, you do well to consider that what it means to you may not directly correspond to it's local meaning. <<

I'm not confused. The question is whether their lingo corresponds to the "lingo" of the Indians they're supposedly honoring. I don't have to understand their meaning; all I have to do is compare the two.

I don't really have to do that, since a Native woman who resides in New Orleans has done it for me. You've questioned my credentials; what credentials give you more insight than she has? If she said the Mardi Gras Indians are stereotypical, who are you to say differently?

>> ex."His wife is a very jealous woman." To many people, this would describe a negative trait in the wife. To some one of the Middle Eastern this would describe a very positive trait in the wife. <<

Irrelevant. If the Mardi Gras Indians portrayed Indian women as "jealous," the only valid question is whether this portrayal matched the reality of the Indian women being portrayed. I or anyone can compare the two portrayals without having to understand either. All I have to know is whether they match or not.

>> You have to look beyond how you ordinarily view life when what you see and hear comes from some one quite different from you. <<

Since I have the testimony of a Native woman from New Orleans who agrees with my perceptions, no, I really don't. You need to understand her viewpoint and accept that her opinion is as valid as yours, if not much more valid.

>> Most Natives in the south only get together to dress up real prettily and dance. It may be stereo-typical but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing that they do it. <<

Since I didn't say their desire to dress up and dance was bad, this is irrelevant.

>> Many Native Americans consider themselves Christian. Does that mean that when they attempt to honor their ancestors (which goes against Christian belief) that they are only contributing to stereo-types. I don't think so. <<

It would depend how they did it.

>> Being Native does not have to be a political statement. It is simply being and doing. <<

I'm not making political statements. The Mardi Gras Indians aren't Native people. I'm not clear on the relevance of your comments above.

>> A Native on a reservation has no responsibility to make sure that every action he/she takes represents some outsiders view of "geniune" Native activities and neither do those who live off of a reservation. <<

The Mardi Gras Indians are neither, so this statement is also irrelevant. But let's pretend they are real Indians. If they were living their lives according to their own beliefs and practices, I wouldn't question them. But if they decided to dress up as stereotypical Indians for the tourists, then I would. That behavior is not part of their normal culture.

>> Masking existed in this area long before Mardi Gras. Masking was a means of survival for Black/Natives. <<

Reread my posting. The article discussed "masking" but I didn't.

>> Now you say that "masking Indian" is a stereo-type. <<

No, a Native woman from New Orleans said it. I merely confirmed her expert opinion.

>> Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but most southern Blac/Natives <<

Your terminology is misleading because the blacks involved haven't claimed descent from Natives, either on their website or in the article I quoted. If I need to keep reiterating this point until you acknowledge it, I will, believe me.

>> Who are you to tell us which traditions we should keep? <<

Who are you to tell a Native woman you know more about her ancestors than she does?

>> How old does a tradition have to be to be considered "genuine" to you? <<

If a tradition portrays another people's tradition, it doesn't matter how old or new it is. What matters is how accurate and authentic it is.

>> Are the Choctaw of Louisiana stereo-typing when they put sequins on the little girl dancers? <<

Nope, because they're practicing their own culture—all of their own culture—not someone else's.

>> It's hard for me to see what your problem is with the "Mardi Gras Indians". <<

Well, I've explained it repeatedly. Reread my previous messages.

>> Do they not have the right to call themselves whatever they please because you don't consider them authentic? <<

Again, at least one Native woman doesn't consider them authentic. Try to deal with that point, okay?

They have the right to call themselves whatever they want. Again—and I'm getting a little tired of repeating myself—I'm not challenging their rights. I'm challenging their choice.

The Washington Redskins also have a long and proud tradition. They've called themselves Redskins for decades. They have every legal right to do so (at least so far). They claim they're honoring Indians, upholding their traditions, etc., etc. They create jobs for the community, do good deeds for their neighbors, kiss babies, etc., etc.

I wouldn't challenge their 1st Amendment rights, either. What I will challenge is the stereotypical nature of their name, the Redskins. How they rationalize the name, how they act apart from this name, what traditions they have, etc. are all irrelevant. I'm judging the name alone and the name is stereotypical.

The same applies to the Mardi Gras Indians and the specific things I've noted.

>> Do you think that stereo-types are all bad <<

They're bad if they obscure the truth of a situation. They're bad the way incorrect information is bad. They're generally not "evil" or anything that serious.

>> and all Natives should stop doing anything that others expect to see Natives doing? <<

No, nor am I going to waste much more time on these silly rhetorical questions.

>> If we let the fact that outsiders misunderstand our lifestyle stop us from living, what lifestyle should we have? <<

Who is this "we" you're talking about? Repeat: The blacks involved haven't claimed descent from Natives, either on their website or in the article I quoted. If I need to keep reiterating this point until you acknowledge it, I will.

>> You seem to be letting how these people look on five or six days a year determine how much Indian they are. <<

Nope, I'm saying how they look five or six days a year is stereotypical. No more and no less.

>> Feathered headdresses and moccasins are not how genuine Indians dress any more but nobody says that it's wrong for people to do when they pow wow. <<

I've attended several powwows, and nobody wears clothing that's inappropriate for their culture. You don't see a Chumash Indian pretending to be a Lakota Grass Dancer. People wear regalia from their own culture, based on their own traditions. They're honoring their own people, not some other people.

>> Is authenticity decided by who's wearing it? <<

In the case of a genuine Indians who have made their own costumes, they're probably good judges. That's not to say they're necessarily perfect judges, mind you.

>> I believe that you view these people in the way that you do because you've only been exposed to one manner of getting to know about them. <<

You don't know what you're talking about. I've probably talked to people from hundreds of tribes. And I've read at least a page of info on every Indian tribe still in existence in Tiller's Guide to Indian Country. I'm guessing I know a lot more about Native diversity than you do.

>> I could find out a lot but never enough to judge them or their actions from anything but my own opinion. You seem to be judging how authentic they are by what they do on a couple of days each year. <<

No, I'm judging the authenticity of their costumes, their dances, and the other specific things I mentioned. Your guesses about what else I'm judging are wrong and irrelevant to boot.

>> If you took any group of Natives and judged them by what they do a couple of days a year you'd have just as innaccurate an idea of what they are really like. <<

If they dressed in inappropriate costumes that had nothing to do with their own culture, to mimic someone else's culture, I'd be happy to judge their behavior as stereotypical also.

>> These people live in the same neighborhoods that they celebrate in. So those who see them know that this is not how they (or any other Natives) live their every day life. <<

I never said they lived their lives this way the whole year. Could you possibly say something relevant rather than irrelevant?

>> I just wished that you would be able to experience what actual life is like for southern Natives <<

That's not necessary since, among other things, I have the testimony of a Native woman whose people the Mardi Gras Indians are mimicking.

>> you claim that one particular people are not genuine just because they're unique. <<

Their portrayal of the original Indian inhabitants of the New Orleans area isn't genuine. Nor have you said anything to argue otherwise. All you've really said is that the Mardi Gras "Indians" have their own culture and they consider it genuine. THat's nice, but it's irrelevant. John Ford and John Wayne were expressing their own culture also when they made movies featuring Indians. That doesn't tell us one whit about whether the Indian portrayals were accurate or inaccurate. Again, the sincerity or "genuineness" of Ford's and Wayne's beliefs are irrelevant to that particular question.

>> Not all Indians live or ever did live in mountain-side housing. <<

Spare me the condescending talk about things I already know. I'm guessing my knowledge of Indian culture is vastly superior to yours.

>> It's more accurate to say that this group has practics that do not reflect the majority of Natives. <<

They don't reflect the majority of Natives, and they don't reflect the specific Choctaw and other Native cultures that existed in the New Orleans area.

>> It doesn't mean that I'm insulting Blacks or contributing to a stereotype if it just so happens that that I'm Black and I love fried chicken. <<

If the only aspect of black culture you put on display for 5-6 days is eating fried chicken, you certainly are contributing to the stereotype.

>> I think we should fight the mentality of people believing in stereo-types instead of fighting those whose actions were misinterpreted in the first place. <<

I am fighting the mentality of people who believe in stereotypes—such as the stereotype that all Indians have chiefs or wear feathers. I haven't misinterpreted a thing, as far as I can tell.

>> you'll see that what makes stereotyping bad is the person who misunderstands what they see <<

Yes, and anyone who sees the Mardi Gras Indians is likely to misunderstand what real Indian culture is like. That's exactly my point, thank you very much.

>> There's nothing wrong with me licking my lips like that or dressing how ever I dress. <<

Again, if you put that behavior, or any behavior, on display for 5-6 days and present it as the only aspect of a culture worth presenting, you're likely to stereotype yourself or whoever it is you're presenting.

>> Because of the intertwined heritage of Blacks and Natives, there is much less stereo-typing here than in other places. <<

Intertwined in many cases, but not necessarily here. Repeat: The blacks involved haven't claimed descent from Natives, either on their website or in the article I quoted. If I need to keep reiterating this point until you acknowledge it, I will.

>> Do you ever wonder why it is that there are so much fewer mascot incidents and psuedo-Indian marketing schemes down here? <<

Umm, because there are fewer Indians in the South than in the Midwest or West?

>> Mardi Gras Indians aren't contributing to a stereotype because most of the people who view them are quite aware of reality. <<

Awareness of the reality is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether the stereotypical behavior matches the real behavior of the people supposedly being honored.

>> You'll never hear of any one coming away from viewing these people with the idea that this is supposedly how all Indians act. <<

Sure, and no one who ever sees an Atlanta Brave fan doing the tomahawk chop as a joke will ever believe that's real, either. Go ahead and prove that if you can. A survey of all the visitors to New Orleans who learn about the local Indians by watching the Mardi Gras "Indians" would suffice. Do you have such a study?

No, I didn't think so. End of story.

Rob

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