Another response to Adolf Hitler:  A True American:

Correspondent PumaClaw launched a debate by speculating on David Cornut's beginnings:

>> I get the impression that the kid got his info from some American white supremacy activist who tries to organize the skinheads in Europe. <<

Right, but I don't think that contradicts what I hypothesized. Suppose the kid is a proto-neo-Nazi looking for a role model...some American neo-Nazis tell him about Custer...and it resonates with what little he knows about cowboys and Indians from romantic works such as Karl May's books. He adopts Custer as his neo-Nazi role model because Custer fits his idiotic notion of the ideal man. Custer's "tragic" death at the hands of non-Aryan savages only cements the bond.

The debate continues (8/1/02)....
>> You're assuming, of course, that he read Karl May's books. <<

No, I'm hypothesizing what I hypothesized. Namely,

Cornut doesn't have to have read May's books in this sequence of suppositions. Maybe he saw a John Wayne movie or a Frederic Remington painting. Same idea: romanticizing the West.

>> Karl May was a German author and not a French one. Also, a fan of Karl May would not view Custer's death "tragic" but simply in a vein of "shit happens." <<

That's your opinion. Having read the critical consensus about May's books, I disagree.

>> You really need to read Karl May's books to understand how a Karl May fan views the West. <<

No, I don't. Perhaps you need to read the critical consensus, which states that May's romantic notion of the Old West influenced Germans enormously.

>> They're adventure stories and not political statements. <<

I never said they were political statements. But everything is political whether it intends to be or not. Texts have subtexts and so forth.

>> In fact, the race issue is not prominent in them at all and neither is the military. <<

If Shatterhand has an Indian partner and kills "rogue" Indians, race is prominent. Whether the books make race an explicit issue or not, it's implicit.

>> Keep in mind, however, that nazis are primarily nationalists hence anti-foreigner, especially in France, and they're not likely to latch on to an American hero of German ancestry. <<

American nationalists tend to be right-wingers who have latched onto the foreigner Jesus. People don't care about the nationality of a historical figure. He's dead and thus no threat to their self-image.

The debate continues (8/22/02)....
>> Like Schiller's fictional William Tell, May's Winnetou is bigger than life and incorporates all the positive character traits a man can possibly have to the total exclusion of any negative traits. <<

Tonto was a completely positive character too, yet I and other have criticized him. A positive stereotype is still a stereotype. It's not historically accurate.

>> In fact, since Karl May used to be a school teacher, it stands to reason that his Winnetou stories were strongly influenced by Schiller's William Tell. Have you read any of these books? <<

Nope.

>> I seriously wonder if the people who keep criticizing Karl May are even familiar with German literature period. <<

I'm not...yet I think my criticism is on target. I read enough about May to summarize what the critics think of his books.

>> So, suddenly we get inundated with a pile of bullshit about Karl May and how he stereotyped Indians more than a century ago and how the Germans have the audacity to have read his books when they were kids. <<

I can't speak for anyone else, but I had no such reason for linking Hitler to May's books. I did it because the link seems obvious and reveals a lot about both Hitler's and the American mentality.

>> I'm sorry but I really see Nevada and Florida behind all these objections against German tourists in the SW. <<

I think you're seeing things. I suspect people have criticized May's books a long time. Unless you can identify a specific time when this criticism started, then link it to a specific shift in German tourism from Florida to New Mexico (with statistics), this is all idle speculation.

>> Seriously though, the timing of the objections against foreign books that are more than a century old is just a bit too pat if you think about it. <<

I think you've just become aware of the criticism because the Web has made it obvious. That's quite different from the criticism's actually starting recently.

The debate continues (9/27/02)....
>> I don't like the Tonto character period but surely you don't expect fiction to contain historical accuracy? <<

Of course not. I was just making a tangential point.

>> Besides, this Winnetou character is nothing like Tonto period. <<

Is Winnetou a positive character or isn't he? If he isn't a faithful Indian companion, how is he different?

Regardless of Winnetou's character, the overall theme of the books is the romanticization of the Old West. Hitler could have picked that up no matter what the details.

>> Don't criticize something you don't have first-hand experience with. <<

I do it all the time.

>> It's a bad mistake to make. You really can't trust critics. <<

Not the way I do it. I've found you can trust critics, especially when you check enough of them.

Reporters do this constantly in the press. It's called journalism. You don't replicate a science experiment or sit in every session of Congress yourself. You ask the right questions of the right people and weigh their opinions.

>> First of all, you are kind of establishing here that there is some sort of common mentality somewhere and I can't figure out where since Hitler and May are not even compatriots. <<

Why would they need to be compatriots? Hitler read May's books. He was influenced by May's romantic notion of the Old West. End of story.

>> May was German and Hitler was Austrian. Also, May predates Hitler by a long shot. <<

Totally irrelevant when it comes to reading and being influenced by literature. No American is a "compatriot" of anyone who wrote the Bible, yet the Bible influences millions of Americans every day.

>> I have no idea why anybody here in the US would even bother to criticize or critique May's books period. What the hey for? <<

Why the heck not? Lots of professional and armchair scholars are reading and criticizing everything under the sun.

>> http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa020408a.htm
Check this website, you'll see that hardly any of them were ever translated period, and the few translations are really lousy. So why critique them? <<

This posting doesn't say there weren't any translations between 1952 and 1999. More important, the argument is that May's books influenced Hitler, not Americans. Americans may just be picking up on this fact now, with the new translations and the World Wide Web of information.

I think the most significant line from this essay is: "[M]uch of the German Amerikabild, or image of America, comes from the western stories of Karl May (1842-1912) and the German movies and television programs they have inspired."

Continuing with this and another site:

Despite the noble Winnetou, May's books apparently convey that most Indians are bad, or at least childlike and easily led astray. Sounds like a justification for treating them as subhumans to me.

The predominant Christian value is that Christians are predominant. Again, that's ample justification for treating non-Christians such as Jews as inferiors.

Winning over the "bad men"—i.e., the pagan, subhuman mud people. Sounds like Hitler's program in a nutshell.

That Hitler ignored the message of brotherhood in May's books is no more surprising than his ignoring the message of brotherhood in the Bible. The raw material for his program was present in both books. Good vs. evil. Christians vs. non-Christians. A God-given destiny to dominate the world. Hitler and his Nazis were selectively inspired by May's books just as they were selectively inspired by history.

Without reading the books, every single thing I've read about the books confirms my belief that May's books influenced Hitler. Let me know when you have any research to contradict this thesis.

>> It would be difficult to criticize or critique them prior to 1999 when the first and only halfway readable translations into English were published. <<

Hitler obviously didn't need them to be translated before reading them. Many American academics can read German. Many German academics can write English. Etc.

>> Previous translations from 1952 are described as terrible and probably only consist of a couple of his books too. <<

That the translations were terrible doesn't tell us much about whether they captured the gist of May's themes and messages. A bad translation could exacerbate these themes and messages, which would provide more grist for the neo-Nazi types who may have influenced Cornut. You're really reaching here to come up with objections.

>> Unless whoever wrote those critiques can read German, what exactly is being criticized here? Hear-say? <<

Why couldn't they read German? We're talking about 100 years or whatever of scholarship since May wrote the books. There's been a hell of a lot of literature students in that time.

>> So where does all this sudden furor come from? His books ain't exactly on any bestseller lists over here. <<

Libraries and used bookstores until 1995 or so. The Web since then.

>> Why would anybody waste his time critiquing books nobody reads? <<

Because it's interesting to postulate May's influence on the German and Nazi mindset.

The debate continues (10/3/02)....
For some reason I answered the same message I answered back in August.

>> You're assuming, of course, that he read Karl May's books. Karl May was a German author and not a French one. <<

I said romantic books such as May's. In other words, any Western pulp fiction. But given the nationwide festivals devoted to May in Germany, it's not unreasonable to speculate that Cornut may have heard of May directly. There's a lot of traffic between France and Germany, just as there is between any two neighboring countries.

>> You really need to read Karl May's books to understand how a Karl May fan views the West. They're adventure stories and not political statements. <<

No, I don't. I understand they're adventures. I also understand that "pure" adventures such as John Wayne movies have political subtexts.

The same applies to the stories of Lone Ranger and Tonto or Natty Bummpo and Chingachgook. The latter may be the closest analogue to Shatterhand and Winnetou in American literature, and I assure you their stories have a subtext of white racial dominance. Study the literary criticism of Fenimore Cooper's works if you don't believe me.

Moreover, I've analyzed more comic book stories than almost anyone short of an academic. They're supposedly adventures also, but they convey significant messages about race, class, and other social factors. If "funny books" for children have such deep-seated messages, adult pulp fiction does too.

The critics back what I've said about May's books. This issue is a sidelight to my main work, not the main work itself. If five or ten or however many critics agree with me, that's enough for my purposes. I have a lot of other things to do besides disprove a theory that seems rock-solid on the face of it.

If you want to disprove the critical mass of support for my thesis, go ahead. As far as I'm concerned, it's valid until somebody proves otherwise.

>> In fact, the race issue is not prominent in them at all and neither is the military. <<

Race isn't prominent in a series with an Indian as a co-protagonist? And with evil Indians as the antagonists?!

Race is prominent in almost any story about the West. If the work doesn't discuss race, race becomes a factor by omission. The work is conveying that race wasn't an issue when it was—an inaccurate message that can influence readers just as an accurate message can.

The debate continues (11/10/02)....
>> Again, nope, they didn't play cowboys and Indians, they really played cops and robbers over there, still do for that matter. <<

Some biographers have written that Hitler played cowboys and Indians, so yep, again. Until you find one that says this claim is untrue, it stands.

>> I really don't know what your obsession with this Karl May is. <<

I don't have an obsession. It's one of several hundred topics I've written about. And I'm responding to your messages only once every month or so. You're responding immediately, so you must be obsessed.

>> Here's what Hitler himself said about Indians, and I don't see anything mentioned about Karl May period, do you? <<

One generally doesn't write about his childhood influences in grown-up speeches and books. In other words, your point is irrelevant.

>> May didn't protray Indians as an inferior anything, he didn't even really portray them as a race, just as people. <<

"[M]uch of the German Amerikabild, or image of America, comes from the western stories of Karl May (1842-1912) and the German movies and television programs they have inspired."

>> Of course, Winnetou is a positive character, so is Shatterhand. Damn, would you be happier if May had portrayed Winnetou as a Mafia gangster? <<

Do you think books with positive characters can't influence people? As I've said several times, the overall romance of the Old West, with its noble but doomed Natives, could have influenced Hitler regardless of the books' specific content. Feel free to address the point, because you haven't so far.

>> The books are aimed at juveniles, I should hope that both heroes are positive characters. <<

Yes. Hitler read them when he was a juvenile, supposedly.

>> I'm really wondering why you object to an Indian being portrayed in a book as a good and intelligent guy. Smacks a bit like racism to me. <<

That's funny, in a ridiculous and illogical way, considering I publish a comic book with positive, intelligent Indian characters. Try again.

Sounds like you haven't paid much attention to my actual arguments. Read 'em again so I won't have to repeat myself.

>> The more I think about, the more I get the impression, correct me if I'm wrong, that you're trying to write a thesis about how Karl May was influential in Hitler's politics. <<

I've written and posted an informal thesis at Adolf Hitler:  A True American. I'm a little far removed from school to be writing an actual thesis. And many scholars have written already about May's influence on Hitler and other Germans, so I'd only be duplicating their work.

>> Moreover, I also studied foreign literature, and I can tell you that if I were on the panel, you'd bomb with your thesis. <<

Not that you've shown in your messages. I've turned back all your criticism with ease.

>> First of all, unless you read Karl May's works in the original yourself, you have no clue as to what Hitler read provided he even read those books. <<

Seems to me I already covered that point.

>> Second, since Karl May's books are the widest read books by German juveniles, obviously they don't have a detrimental influence or every German would have turned into an Adolph Hitler <<

That's your idea of a crushing defense? I suppose no TV show or advertisement or video game or movie or painting or sermon has ever influenced anyone? By this sorry "logic," if it doesn't influence everyone, we can conclude it hasn't influenced anyone. Good luck defending that incredible point of view.

>> Third, if Karl May overglorified the Old West or not between 1870 and 1912 is of no consequence whatsoever because the Indian policies Adolph Hitler admired where developed long before 1870. You need to keep track of the chronology of events there. <<

You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before.

I'm kicking butt in defense of my so-called thesis so far, but keep trying! <g>

No link between Jews, Indians?
>> Last but least, if you read up on history, you'll discover that Hitler's dislike for Jews has no connection with Native American Indians whatsoever. <<

I've read the history and quoted the experts who think there's a link. Your opinion to the contrary isn't a defense worth mentioning. Quote me an expert who thinks there's no link or give it up.

>> It's also a well known fact that Hitler's obsession with Jewish treason is a result of his participation in W.W.I and not some juvenile fiction books he may or may not have read while growing up. <<

Hitler could've gotten his idea for the Final Solution from America's policies and May's books even if he didn't get his hatred of Jews from them. Again, keep trying. You haven't touched my so-called thesis yet.

As for what's a well-known fact, I hope you don't expect to serve on thesis committees with unsubstantiated claims like that. Quote the "well-known fact" from a well-known expert or give it up.

>> Do you know if Goebbels and Himmler read Karl May's books? Who knows? Does it even matter? <<

I don't know, but if they did, it would bolster my already strong argument.

>> The Jewish people were discriminated against all over Europe as well as in the US for centuries before those four mouseketeers (Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, and Goehring) came along <<

Key difference: Jews weren't subjected to genocide before. Not on a continental scale, anyway.

>> The adventure fiction of Karl May does not involve US policies toward Indian people period. <<

"Perhaps you need to read the critical consensus, which states that May's romantic notion of the Old West influenced Germans enormously."

>> The defeat of the Indian people did not occur on the battle field by was a result of US trickery, politicking, and lies along with a concentrated effort at genocide. <<

Similar to the German genocide against the Jews.

>> Judging from your German name, you might well be of Jewish ancestry and therefore harbor ill will against anything German. <<

Wrong again. My ancestry is English and German—pure WASP. I don't harbor ill will toward my German ancestors (who immigrated to America in the 1840s). I'm repeating the scholarly consensus and you're repeating your opinions. If you don't like the scholarly consensus, find some scholars who disagree with it. Your opinions aren't rebutting the consensus one bit.

>> I do believe, however, that you're going overboard by trying to link Hitler with Karl May. <<

No, I'd be going overboard if I said May was the sole or primary influence. I haven't said that. He was one influence among many, in my opinion. And in the opinion of experts.

>> If your thesis is for a masters degree or Ph.D. <<

It isn't.

>> It's simply too far-fetched, rests on basic presumptions, and is historically and chronologically incorrect. <<

Your rebuttal is chronologically useless because you haven't grasped what I'm arguing. It's historically useless because it's your opinion, nothing else.

>> It's major flaw, however, is that you haven't read the original works of Karl May yourself and therefore are in no position to judge them. <<

I've already addressed that point at length. I've quoted academic experts and you've quoted zip.

>> If you want some ideas for a master thesis or whatever, you might want to write about Manifest Destiny in 2002 or the American influence on Adolph Hitler or whatever <<

Manifest Destiny was inherent in May's Western books, as scholars have noted.

The so-called German mentality
>> but to link Karl May with Adolph Hitler and invent some uniform German mentality is just too slippery a slope to stand up in any university worthy of its name. <<

"Perhaps you need to read the critical consensus, which states that May's romantic notion of the Old West influenced Germans enormously."

>> Good gravy, by the time you get through inventing a collective, uniform German mentality <<

I haven't invented a German mentality. I've quoted the experts.

>> You don't allow for individualism among that group of people. <<

A few individuals determined Nazi Germany's policies toward Jews.

>> Why you want to vent on some of the most liberal people in Europe, the Germans <<

I'm not venting. "Perhaps you need to read the critical consensus, which states that May's romantic notion of the Old West influenced Germans enormously."

>> but you're totally overlooking in your thesis the fact that whatever happened in the US was not carried out by the Germans and took place long before Karl May or Hitler ever saw the light of day. <<

What you're overlooking is my entire thesis. Read the Hitler posting at the link I gave you and stop wasting time with an argument I haven't made.

>> In fact, even the KuKluxKlan, which is the grandpappy of the various neonazi organizations in the US, predates both Hitler and Karl May's literary endeavors since it came into existence at the end of the Civil War in 1865. <<

I wouldn't be surprised if America's Indian policies and the romanticized Westerns of the post-Civil War era influenced the KKK. As well as Hitler and his Nazi leadership.

>> I have no idea why you are trying to whitewash America by trying to vilify some German author whose books were only recently translated to any extent. <<

I have no idea what you're talking about with this sentence. Whitewash America? That'll be news to everyone who thinks I hate America.

If I claim America's Manifest Destiny policies of exterminating Indians influenced Hitler's Manifest Destiny-like policies of exterminating Jews, that's a whitewash of America? Check the definition of "whitewash," friend, because it's not clear you know what it means.

Better yet, read what I've posted at Native vs. non-Native Americans:  A Summary, since you don't seem to understand my overall position on Americans and Native Americans. Educate yourself a little and then we'll talk further.

Rob

The debate continues (11/11/02)....
>> No, not at all. Nothing like it. I asked the same question, BTW. In fact, the NDN guy is the local dude, Shatterhand is the foreigner, so Winnetou is really the more savvy one of the two, the folks from there informed me. <<

How exactly is that different? I'm not sure where the Lone Ranger or Tonto supposedly came from, but Tonto is more native to their Western environs than the Lone Ranger is. I don't recall much about their tracking and woodcraft skills, but I'd bet Tonto is superior in those areas too. The parallels still seem close to me.

>> The Lone Ranger is not known in Germany period, at least none of my contacts are familiar with those characters at all, because I asked about that. <<

The Lone Ranger is an archetype. He and Tonto are a more recent version of Natty Bumppo and Chingachgook, two well-known characters from fiction. Or the Pilgrims and Squanto from history. Karl May could've modeled Shatterhand and Winnetou on any of these. Or he could've (re)invented the archetypal characters on his own.

>> Keep in mind that this Old Shatterhand is a foreign guy who never settles in the US. In those books, he always returns to Germany. He's an adverturer and not a settler. <<

The Lone Ranger wasn't a settler either. He was a roving lawman...a free agent. He's definitely an adventurer and arguably a version of the Daniel Boone explorer-hero.

>> In fact, the books don't even mention white permament residents period, I was told. No Manifest Destiny. <<

If white authority figures are making life-and-death decisions over other people without the rule of law, it's a kind of Manifest Destiny.

I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to contradict the conventional wisdom on May's books. But you'll have to do much better. For instance, here's a quote:

So the opinions of your friends aren't enough. You have the daunting task of proving a negative—that May didn't influence German opinions about the American West even though most experts say he did.

>> In fact, my contacts who read numerous stories by Karl May said he never even mentions that a US exists. In fact, he doesn't even mention individual states. <<

Sounds like bad writing. But what about individual cities? No, even that isn't necessary. If you describe the West reasonably well and populate it with cowboy and Indian types, people will get the idea. For instance, Winnetou's an Apache and the Apache existed only in a specific place: the American southwest. That alone creates a setting the average reader will recognize.

>> First of all, his books seem to have been an instant success over there, which means they already sold well in the 1870s. They have maintained a steady popularity since then. <<

And that contradicts my point that "May may have inspired romantic visions of the Old West in today's right-wing"? Sounds like it supports the point to me.

>> In other words, they ain't crazy about cowboys, Indians, Custer, or anything else foreign to them. <<

America's neo-Nazis are nationalists too. Yet they get their inspiration from Nazis, a political party from another country. The reverse may be true also.

>> They sure as hey ain't crazy about the folks who bombed the hell out of them in World War 2, especially Dresden and Hamburg. <<

Cowboys like the Lone Ranger didn't bomb them. Soldiers did. It would be easy to blame the US government or its representatives for WW II while thinking romantically about cowboys from an earlier era.

That's exactly the attitude in the Islamic world now. Muslims hate the US government and its policies, but love the American people and their culture. They're able to make such nuanced distinctions.

Really, things like this happen all the time. A good example would be the British colonists who settled in the South before and after the Revolutionary War. They quickly decided they were a separate culture from the North even though they were the same people.

If the South could separate themselves from the North and vice versa, while still considering themselves Americans, why couldn't Germans separate America's industrial culture of 1945 from its pastoral culture of 1845? Those two slices of American culture are a lot more different from each other than the North and South were in 1845.

Shatterhand = Karl May
>> Custer doesn't even compare to that Old Shatterhand period. This character Old Shatterhand is supposed to be Karl May himself and is therefore a school teacher in Germany (which is what Karl May really was) who goes on these advertures in the Old West but always returns to Germany. <<

The schoolteacher origin and the return to Germany are details. The main point of comparison is what Shatterhand does in the heart of his adventures. Does he shoot bad guys, including "bad" Indians? Then he fits the Lone Ranger archetype even if the details are different.

>> In fact, one of my contacts remembered that in one book this Shatterhand mentions being a school teacher in Dresden, Germany, and this Apache, Winnetou, comes to visit him there to the delight of the students. This Apache seems to be quite suave and worldly in that particular episode. <<

If that's the main plot of the book, it would be one book that doesn't fit the pattern. The pattern, again, is romanticizing the Old West.

>> Not at all. I'm told that all of Karl May's books share the same popularity. <<

That would be atypical of almost any author. Fans usually love some of an author's books more than others. Sales figures or critical commentary might help bolster your point. What you were told by someone who hasn't done any research isn't persuasive.

>> If anything, the ones in the Middle East might be more popular because they're a little more humorous, although all of them have their humorous passages. <<

Popularity doesn't prove much. The images in May's Western books were reinforced by countless American paintings, plays, and dime novels...the Wild West shows that toured Europe...and later, movies, and TV shows. I doubt there was much of a market for Sahara Desert-based entertainment and memorabilia.

People scorned Melville's Moby-Dick when he wrote it, but it became popular because it resonated. Because it presented an archetypal story: obsessed man vs. force of nature. May's Western books resonated also and for the same reason. Whether his other books were more or less popular, I doubt they resonated the same way.

>> Since young Adolf Hitler was Austrian, who knows if he even read any of those books since it's not clear how well this type of literature crossed borders back then. <<

It's not clear...but you're using the unclear point to argue with me? Sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing.

Read about Hitler's childhood at

>> Not really. Keep in mind that these gold miners and Lewis and Clark type people are only folks this Old Shatterhand happens to run across. <<

Yes, really. Manifest Destiny began with pioneering types like Lewis and Clark, fur-trappers, and other explorers blazing a trail for civilization. They were the first but not last harbingers of America's righteous continental conquest.

>> They're not major characters in his stories. <<

Then who are the major characters? Savage Indians? Or is it just Shatterhand and Winnetou alone?

>> Which is very unfair to the author. <<

I quoted someone who presumably researched the point. He had footnotes and everything. Moreover, his view is compatible with the prevailing view of critics like the one cited above. Unless you've got more than contacts who say I should read the books, I'm going with the people I've cited.

>> My contacts tell me that people should really and truly bother to read those books before they pass judgment on them. <<

I'm a librarian by trade: a researcher and synthesizer. I'm not passing judgment on the books myself so much as synthesizing the judgment of others. That's what journalists, librarians, and researchers do.

May railed against Aryan supremacy?
>> In fact, if anything, Karl May railed against this rigid mentality the nazis have, although, of course, he was long dead before the nazis came to power for a short time there. <<

If true, that doesn't surprise me. A rugged individualist like John Wayne would think himself the polar opposite of a Nazi like Hitler. He'd think that while he was conquering Indians for the white man same as Hitler conquered mud people for the Aryans. Ironic, eh?

>> Good gravy, let's not ruin the reputation of yet another innocent bystander. <<

I've quoted my sources. Find me some sources—other than your unnamed contacts—who disagree with me. And I'm not besmirching May's innocence or ruining his reputation. I'm noting his influence on others. No more and no less.

>> It was bad enough that Hitler latched on to Wagner. There's some singer in Germany now, Heino, the nazis have chosen as their favorite singer and the man absolutely loathes those guys. <<

How May, Wagner, or Heino feel about the Nazis liking and using them is irrelevant to this discussion. We're talking about how the Nazis felt about them, not vice versa.

>> Let's face it, if Karl May and the nazis had been contemporaries, Karl May would have probably wound up in a concentration camp with his views. <<

Possibly, but also irrelevant.

>> There's a lot of infighting between different fundamentalist churches, and different factions of the Republican Party. That doesn't mean they aren't on the same basic page overall.

That club is neither a church nor a political party. <<

Come on! Those were examples. A faction isn't necessarily a political faction. It's simply a subgroup within a group.

If you insist I spell this out, okay. There's a lot of infighting between different factions or subgroups in any political, social, economic, cultural, or religious group. That doesn't mean they aren't on the same basic page overall.

>> The members of that club, according to my contacts, are a bunch of overgrown kids with way too much time and money on their hands. That club has been around for a long time already and never was any different. It compares to Star Trek fan clubs and the likes. <<

Star Trek fans can be fanatical. But we're drifting away from the original point. We don't know Cornut is a neo-Nazi, so what neo-Nazi clubs might do is only speculative.

That they might set off a bomb at a pseudo-Indian outing is an argument in my favor. If the neo-Nazis got their inspiration from the Old West, part of that would be killing the heathen savages. And the people who dress up like them.

>> Is said to have doesn't mean he read them. But then again, Hitler undoubtedly read Plato and Nietzsche and Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs too. So what of it? You can't condemn every author of books Hitler might have read. <<

I refer you again to the quote. And I wasn't condemning May's books so much as describing them and their effects. That Hitler made choices based on May's books doesn't make May a bad person. It doesn't say much of anything about May, really.

If Hitler read and reread Plato and Nietzsche and Snow White, I'd look to them for clues to his behavior also. And nothing would be wrong with that. People have noted links between Nietzsche and Hitler and found them useful for understanding Hitler's motivations.

>> Obviously not because if it had, he would have railed against it. <<

Since I haven't seen any firsthand evidence that Hitler admired Jackson's policies, I can't say much more about that. I will say that anyone who liked Old Shatterhand might also have liked Andrew Jackson, since they're both versions of the pioneer/cowboy archetype.

>> John Wayne was a racist all the way around. It seems he was quite a fascist and really identified with the roles he played. <<

And so was Hitler.

>> In this case it's a major detail because if Hitler had read those books, he would have been familiar with the Apache rather than the Sioux. <<

Okay, but I haven't seen any firsthand or even secondhand evidence that Hitler knew only the Sioux. Where are you getting these tidbits of info from? And please don't say your contacts again, because I don't know them or where they're getting their info from. Cite and quote your sources, if possible.

>> That this Winnetou was an Apache is mentioned over and over in the books, my contacts informed me. Heck, they tell me that's even sometimes in German crossword puzzles: Winnetou's Indian tribe as the clue, Apache as the answer. It's hard to miss. As one guy told me, you have to have not read those books period in order not to know that this guy was Apache. <<

I understand. If someone could prove Hitler knew only the Sioux, it would be prima facie evidence that he hadn't read May's books. I await such proof with bated breath.

PumaClaw says what he's told
>> Why would they need to prove it? Since they're the ones who read the books and they're the ones who are familiar with Hitler and his speeches, they should know. I'm not gonna argue with their conclusions. <<

I am. If they or you are trying to persuade me, they need to prove their claims. I've already documented my claims: that Germans in general and Hitler in particular were deeply influenced by Hitler's books. Without further evidence, my claims stand.

Again, I don't need to have read May's books to summarize the critical appraisal of them. Or to quote people who have read them.

>> It's even more far-fetched to bring Karl May into a discussion of neo-nazis or even old nazis. <<

It appears to be the critical consensus to me. Again, if you have academic sources that disagree with this consensus, bring 'em on. Your contacts don't move me.

>> Again, keep in mind that Karl May died in 1912, wrote his books prior to 1874, and set them into an Old West that doesn't even mention the US period, but the Third Reich lasted from 1933 till 1945. <<

Now this is farfetched. The Bible, Shakespeare, and the Founding Fathers have influenced and are influencing the modern world long after their time. Karl May's books absolutely do not have to be contemporary with either the Nazis or the neo-Nazis to have had an influence.

>> Adolf Hitler not only picked up Jackson's Indian Removal policy but also the US eugenics scene from the 1920s in which the Bush family was also involved. I think I worry more about Bush than about someone reading Karl May's books. <<

Other influences doesn't negate the possibility of May's influence. All three could've influence Hitler. And I've documented May's influence. You haven't documented the other two.

>> And Schiller romanticized Old Switzerland, so what? <<

So romantic old books can influence people's perceptions, that's what.

>> I'd get upset about Karl May if he had trashed the Old West considering that his Old West had hardly any whites in it period. <<

The Last of the Mohicans had few whites in it, but it's a pioneering work of American literature—in more ways than one.

>> He was a nationalist period. Didn't seem to bother him to fire a rocket into Antwerp where all these Aryan people lived. I think you're turning Hitler into more of a philosopher than he really was. <<

He sought to subjugate other countries for their own good. He sought to kill the Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals because they were non-Aryan and deviant. Unless you think he was born evil, his beliefs came from somewhere. The Bible is one good guess, and romantic visions of America's racial cleansing is another.

>> Where else would it originate from? Custer sure ain't no household word in Europe. <<

From any of maybe a million old movies, TV shows, history books, novels, or comic books—for starters. They do have libraries in France, don't they?

>> They all know Elvis Presley and Louis Armstrong and Sitting Bull but they don't know George Armstrong Custer, that's for sure. In fact, even my contacts had to pull up websites to figure out who that guy even was — and those are contacts who are fluent in English and have degrees. <<

Maybe Cornut picked up a book at random and got interested in Western lore. Maybe it was one of Karl May's books. What "they all know" is irrelevant when trying to determine an individual's motivations.

>> With only 24% of the Germans and 16% of the French even believing in a god period, I doubt there is any comparison possible between European conservatives and fundamentalist christians in the US. <<

Polls about people's beliefs are shaky at best. The press has documented ties between Europe's far right and America's far right, I believe. If America's far right tends to be fundamentalist and Europe's doesn't, that's not an insurmountable problem in my theory. Many of America's Republicans aren't Christian fundamentalists, but the party has voted in lock-step lately.

There's a lot of infighting between different factions or subgroups in any political, social, economic, cultural, or religious group. That doesn't mean they aren't on the same basic page overall.

>> Actually, the Skinheads in Germany are mostly from the former East Germany. They are from a low socio-economic background with only a basic (8 to 10 years) education. They're not into reading books and their interest in history is extremely limited. <<

That sounds like it fits America's right-wing fundamentalists. It fits Tim McVeigh pretty well.

Skinheads don't know Custer
>> It's difficult to miss these people since they're on the TV news. Since Custer died long before he could get his 15 minutes of fame on international TV, I doubt most Skinheads ever heard of him. <<

Cornut needs only one random exposure to Custer to become fascinated with him. You're wasting time talking about what most people might know or not know.

>> Keep in mind that my contacts are educated folks, and even they had to search the web before they could talk about Custer. <<

Irrelevant.

>> Nope because you're forgetting that nazis don't cotton to foreigners and to nazis outside of the US, cowboys are foreigners. <<

I haven't forgotten that. I've disputed it. Your opinion—that because Nazis disliked soldiers in WW II, neo-Nazis must dislike cowboys—is no more valid than mine. "It would be easy to blame the US government or its representatives for WW II while thinking romantically about cowboys from an earlier era."

>> Don't forget that this current upsurge of rightwing rhetoric in Europe is mostly caused by the large influx of people from various third world countries who tend to cause problems there. <<

America's pioneers and settlers saw Indians as interlopers on American soil, even though the Indians were there first. The European attitude could be similar to the American attitude, even though Euro-Americans were technically the immigrants in America.

>> Keep in mind that France has suffered numerous terrorist attacks from that corner, so they're just not too crazy about those folks. <<

America's pioneers and settlers suffered many Indian raids and skirmishes, making them not too crazy about Indians. The parallels continue.

>> Keyword: Americans. America is not Europe. <<

"May has been a significant author in shaping the average German youth's view of the American West and the American Indian as well, as part of Germany's long love affair, for good or bad, with the states west of the Mississippi."

>> Of course Europeans are more familiar with our icons than we are with theirs. Europeans pay attention to the outside world while most Americans only pay attention to themselves. The US is an extremely provincial country. In Europe, people sound like rednecked morons if they know nothing about any other country, over here, such an attitude is viewed as patriotism. <<

We agree on that much!

>> Which would make them some strange nazis, that's for sure. <<

There's a lot of infighting between different factions or subgroups in any political, social, economic, cultural, or religious group. That doesn't mean they aren't on the same basic page overall.

>> I'll have to ask about that. As I said, the trademark of European nazis is that they really don't give a hang about other countries. <<

The American West is a fantasy, a myth. It isn't a history lesson. America's nationalists "don't give a hang" about other countries either. But they love the Bible, even though it's a storybook of myths about the Middle East.

If American nationalists can take an interest in the Biblical mythology of the Middle East, German neo-nationalists can take an interest in the fictional mythology of the Old West. Without violating their nationalist "credentials." Fiction isn't reality and studying it doesn't make one an internationalist.

>> You have to keep in mind that American nazis have their family roots in Europe while European nazis couldn't care less about the US. As far as German nazis are concerned, don't forget that the US was Germany's enemy in two world wars. <<

You keep repeating that and I'll keep repeating that loving a romanticized myth isn't the same as loving a real country. Eventually you'll concede the point because it's inarguable.

>> America's finest soldiers fought against Germany in World War 2, don't forget that. <<

It would be easy to blame the US government or its representatives for WW II while thinking romantically about cowboys from an earlier era.

>> So why would European nazis be enamored with Americans period? <<

You can ask this question as many ways as you want and my answer will be the same. Unless you have some academic evidence that neo-Nazis or any nationalists can't distinguish between a real place and a romantic myth, let's drop the point. You won't convince me by repeating the same unsupported arguments and questions ad nauseam.

Neo-Nazis are ignorant
>> And you won't find [educated Europeans] in the nazi party either. That's the whole point of it. <<

Education filters down through the media, schools, and other institutions. If Europe is more educated in general, its neo-Nazi youth should be more educated than our neo-Nazi youth. But again, we're talking about an individual, not all neo-Nazis. Cornut could've learned about Custer from anywhere.

>> During the third reich, every intellectual who could leave the country, did so. The nazi party is associated with low class and low education. <<

The cowboy myth is so simple a child could understand it. That's precisely why it has resonated so deeply with Americans and Germans both.

>> Frankly, I have the suspicion they don't give a damn about US history period. <<

Learning about the myth requires only exposure to American media, which is pervasive.

>> I think you overlook that to Europeans, the US is just another foreign country along with about 200 others. <<

I think you overlook that America's media dominates the world, including Europe. The terrorists in Afghanistan have been quoted touting Rambo as their role model. Repeat: American media is pervasive.

>> That's entirely possible. I just wonder why he's so vehement about defending the guy. <<

He's your buddy, not mine. <g> You should've asked him before you broke off communication.

>> One of the most popular books in France dealing with foreign subjects is, I can't remember the title now, some Cherokee woman by the name of Mary. It has to do with the Trail of Tears. <<

That suggests the French are learning more about America's history—its cowboys and Indians—then your previous disclaimers indicate. It only bolsters my point.

Rob

The debate grows repetitious (11/11/02)....
If you haven't caught on yet, PumaClaw's style is to ask a lot of inane questions that have little or nothing to do with the main topic. In response to "Did Karl May influence Adolf Hitler?" he starts going off the deep end. For instance, "What about Andrew Jackson? What about Manifest Destiny? What about Nazi soldiers? What about US soldiers? What about Germans today? What about Nietzsche? What about Wagner?" Etc.

As you'll see, it got to the point where I could answer the umpteenth version of PumaClaw's irrelevant questions by quoting myself. And so I did. It doesn't make for fascinating reading, but that's kind of the point. When you ask a stupid question, as PumaClaw does repeatedly, you get a stupid answer.

Many readers may want to stop at this point. There are some nuggets of new information, but not many. A few readers may wish to continue to see how a professional writer (me) embarrasses an incompetent ignoramus (PumaClaw).

>> There's a lot of traffic between France and Germany, just as there is between any two neighboring countries.

So what? You gotta problem with that too? <<

I "got a problem" with you assuming that a French youngster wouldn't have any knowledge of either American culture or his neighboring German culture. Pretty naive assumption, if you ask me.

>> Well, you can go ahead and speculate all day long but if you really wanna know, why don't you ask that Corbut character himself if he ever read any of Karl May's books? <<

It's Cornut, not Corbut. Since Cornut didn't answer the simplest questions the last time I communicated with him, I'm not gonna bother trying to engage him in conversation.

>> Are you afraid to ask him or what? <<

See above. You're the one who had a lengthy correspondence with him. It would make more sense for you to ask him. And you did ask him...good.

>> John Wayne always was a nazi, a rightwing fascist, what else is new? What does that have to do with a fiction author in another country at another time writing adventure stories for a juvenile audience that wouldn't know an Indian if they saw one, that wouldn't know a tepee from a hole in the ground? <<

What part of "I also understand that 'pure' adventures such as John Wayne movies have political subtexts" didn't you understand? In simple-Simon terms, May's books, John Wayne movies, and any fiction may have political subtexts.

>> Then by all means, haul over to Germany and start a Karl May book-burning spree. <<

When you can't debate the issues, start ranting, eh? And you think you know how someone critiques or defends a PhD thesis? Funny.

>> I really don't have the faintest idea why you're getting all fired up about an author of juvenline literature in a foreign country who died damn near a century ago. <<

I'm not all fired up. I'm rationally explaining a rational hypothesis, one supported by the scholarly consensus. Since you apparently can't debate the issue rationally, I suggest you give it up.

>> If you think they should read different literature over there, then write some yourself — in German preferably — and market it over there. <<

I have written different literature—my PEACE PARTY comics. But I don't particularly care what today's Germans read. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> Who the hell are you trying to decide what people in foreign countries may or may not read anyway? <<

"I'm repeating the scholarly consensus and you're repeating your opinions. If you don't like the scholarly consensus, find some scholars who disagree with it. Your opinions aren't rebutting the consensus one bit."

>> All books written in the US have political or propagandistic overtones. <<

Which is similar to what I meant when I said John Wayne movies have political subtexts. Glad you're finally beginning to understand my position.

>> Then again, many authors, albeit not all of them, have political agendas, so what? If you don't like their agenda, don't read their books. <<

Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. I'm not arguing about anyone's current reading habits except maybe Cornut's.

>> Did you read Stephen King's "The Stand?" There's an NDN woman in that book too, so why don't you butt heads with him over that? <<

I haven't read it. Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

"How about [fill in the blank with random author's name]?"
>> How about Christopher Moore's "Coyote Blue?" Are you gonna butt heads with him too or do you only go after dead authors who can't talk back? <<

I have read that. Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> What exactly IS your main work? Trashing foreign literature? <<

Already answered. One hopes you've enlightened yourself by now.

>> Since Germans don't just read Karl May's books but an entire range of literature, maybe you might want to try reading Heinrich Boell, Berthold Brecht, and a few others to get the full picture. <<

"I'd be going overboard if I said May was the sole or primary influence. I haven't said that. He was one influence among many, in my opinion. And in the opinion of experts."

>> You can't just single out one line of books and pretend that's all the people in any particular country read. <<

Since I haven't done that, not to worry.

>> What's next? Do you want to ban books from German authors in Germany or what? <<

Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> Guess what? The books Germans read in Germany are none of your friggin business. <<

Guess what? My business is what I say it is. I'm the sole determinant of my business, thank you very much.

Since I'm of German ancestry and you're apparently not, perhaps what we Germans read is none of your business.

>> Get over it. Even Voltaire from France dared to mention South America in Candide. Do you wanna ban his books too? <<

Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> I'm telling you that your thesis is full of anti-German bullshit. <<

"I've read the history and quoted the experts who think there's a link. Your opinion to the contrary isn't a defense worth mentioning. Quote me an expert who thinks there's no link or give it up."

>> I have disproven your critical mass already but your mind is made up, you're in love with your pet theory, and nothing is gonna dislodge it. <<

Your opinions don't disprove squat. They aren't worth the pixels they're written with. Quote or cite an expert, as I've done, or give it up.

>> So you're out to blame some foreign dead guy for the existence of the KKK (which predates his books, BTW) simply because you, like the rest of white Americana, simply can't accept responsibility for the American people's own actions and just have to find someone else to blame. <<

I haven't blamed anyone for the existence of the KKK. Wow, you're good at inventing arguments. Too bad I'm not wasting a moment debating an argument you've made up.

In other words, spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> What else is new? Don't blame you, don't blame me, blame the guy behind the tree, that's all white America is about and you're no different. <<

"If I claim America's Manifest Destiny policies of exterminating Indians influenced Hitler's Manifest Destiny-like policies of exterminating Jews, that's a whitewash of America? Check the definition of 'whitewash,' friend, because it's not clear you know what it means."

>> Race isn't prominent in a series with an Indian as a co-protagonist? And with evil Indians as the antagonists?!

As well as evil whites as the antagonists? <<

Good. You didn't dispute my point, so you implicitly conceded it. Originally you claimed there's no race in May's books, and now you've noted both the Indian and white races. However slowly, we're making progress.

>> So you don't like May's books. <<

"I'm repeating the scholarly consensus and you're repeating your opinions. If you don't like the scholarly consensus, find some scholars who disagree with it. Your opinions aren't rebutting the consensus one bit."

"How about [fill in the blank with random literary genre's name]?"
>> How about pulp fiction about Hongkong? Is race a prominent factor there? How about pulp fiction that has any locale aside from the one of the author? <<

Did Hitler read pulp fiction from Hong Kong when he was a boy? Unless he did, this is irrelevant to my so-called thesis. Quit wasting my time with nonsense.

>> Should we pass universal laws against authors writing any damn adventure stories that take place outside of the author's own neck in the woods? <<

Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> If you had paid any attention at all, you would have discovered that during the last elections on Karl May's home turf, in Germany (a week or two ago), the neonazis, who BTW run as the Republikanische Partei, got exactly 0.5% of the votes, one half of a percent. <<

Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> Doesn't it strike you as odd that Corbut, who might or might not have read one of May's books, is obviously a fired up nazi while the German voters, who are more likely to have read his books, come up voting 99.5% against their nazi party in the last election? <<

Nope. "I'd be going overboard if I said May was the sole or primary influence. I haven't said that. He was one influence among many, in my opinion. And in the opinion of experts."

>> And suddenly, out of the clear blue sky you want me to believe, you come along and whine and gripe about German tourists visiting some NDN reservations in the Southwest. <<

Nope, you're the only one whining and griping about German tourists. That's entirely a subject you raised and debated, mostly with yourself. I've basically ignored it because it's irrelevant to my thesis, which is that May's books influenced Hitler.

>> Not that my rez has German tourists running around asshole to elbow, mind you. <<

Which rez is that, pray tell?

>> So, you are really expecting me to believe that you somehow have the welfare of the NDN people in mind when you start your hate campaign against German tourists ever since they don't flock to Florida's beaches anymore? <<

You're the only one whining and griping about German tourists. That's entirely a subject you raised and debated, mostly with yourself. I've basically ignored it because it's irrelevant to my thesis, which is that May's books influenced Hitler.

>> Sorry, dude, but I smell ulterior motives in your main work, mostly the motive of trying to keep foreign tourist money away from NDN reservations. <<

I couldn't care less what you think you smell. You obviously don't have a clue what my "main work" is. This is "one of several hundred topics I've written about. And I'm responding to your messages only once every month or so. You're responding immediately, so you must be obsessed."

>> I don't know who's commissioning your main work but it sure ain't no NDNs. <<

No one is "commissioning" my work on PEACE PARTY or the Blue Corn Comics website, which has almost 1,000 pages, of which exactly two mention Karl May. But I do have a Board of Native advisors and a large base of Native fans who support my work.

I also work for Victor Rocha, an enrolled member of the Pechanga Band of Luiseno Indians, on his PECHANGA.net website. Check it out. You can find my article on the movie Skins there if you hurry.

I'll be at the National Congress of the American Indian this week on behalf of PECHANGA.net. We'll be talking about sovereignty and trust reform, not Karl May. I'll write an article on the conference when I get home. What will you be doing this week?

>> On the whole, does it really matter if those tourists decided to show up in the Southwest because they read Karl May or if it's because they saw some film footage on TV of the Millennium Powwow in Tucson or both? <<

You tell me, since you introduced the subject of today's German tourists. I'm not debating a subject that's irrelevant to my thesis.

>> Your gripe is about the tourists showing up in the Southwest period and spending money on NDN-made arts and crafts. <<

Nope, you're the only one whining and griping about German tourists. That's entirely a subject you raised and debated, mostly with yourself. I've basically ignored it because it's irrelevant to my thesis, which is that May's books influenced Hitler.

PumaClaw can't grasp plain English
>> Whom are you trying to kid? Just how does the opinion, be it romanticized or not, of the people in Germany have anything to do with us? <<

"You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> How exactly does their opinion over there influence our people here in any way, be that positive or negative in what passes for your mind? <<

I didn't say May's probable influence on Hitler influenced Native people in any way. Another irrelevant argument I'm not going to debate.

>> So you're just another John Wayne special trashing the Germans, only you are using us NDN people for your endeavor. <<

"You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> You pretend to fight anti-NDN racism but in reality you're using and abusing us for your blatant German-bashing. <<

Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> Instead of worrying about dead authors in a foreign country, why don't you look at what's going on over here? <<

Why don't you look at what I'm doing rather than daydreaming what you think I'm doing? I'm guessing I've studied and written more about Native subjects than you have. Unless you can top my 950-plus Web pages and one or two dozen published articles, that is.

>> Ya reckon Gale Norton and George Dubya Bush are reading Karl May's books too or what? <<

I reckon Bush has watched a lot of John Wayne movies, since he lives on a Western ranch and has a simplistic view of national and international politics. As I've said repeatedly, John Wayne movies, like May's views, present a romanticized view of the Old West in which Manifest Destiny is the good and inevitable outcome.

>> How about Andrew Jackson, did he read Karl May's books too? That would have been quite a trick considering the time frame involved here. Thomas Jefferson had quite a sorry view of NDNs too, ya reckon he was influenced by Karl May's books as well? <<

No, but I reckon you've learned to debate from the George W. Bush school of debating. You're adept at raising a bunch of straw-men arguments that have nothing to do with my positions.

I think Jackson and Jefferson helped develop the American attitude that May wrote about. May's books, in turn, influenced Hitler. If you can cite Hitler citing Jackson or Jefferson directly, I'll add them to the influences that include May's books.

>> So what if some Germans romanticize the Old West or NDN people or whatever, how is that any skin off my nose anyway? <<

I didn't ask you to waste my time arguing my hypothesis. Either back up your opinions with expert testimony or give it up.

>> BTW, I spent quite a few years in Germany and didn't notice anybody romanticizing me. They didn't act hostile toward me either, so what exactly is your gripe? <<

Spare me your off-the-subject diatribes. "You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> That they don't like a German-basher like you? <<

Yeah, I'm bashing myself. Funny.

No, "I'm repeating the scholarly consensus and you're repeating your opinions. If you don't like the scholarly consensus, find some scholars who disagree with it. Your opinions aren't rebutting the consensus one bit."

>> For the life of me, I can't get a grasp on what you're after anyway. <<

I believe you can't grasp what I'm after. You've made that abundantly clear. Therefore, I've repeated my positions ad nauseam in the hope that they'll sink in this time. Let me know if my approach worked.

"What is it to you?"
>> Why the hell do you even care what the Germans do, think, or read in Germany? I'm aware of their Cowboy Club or Karl May Club or whatever the official name of that outfit is. Yanno what? That's for rich folks. They set up a few tepees in some Bavarian forest? What is it to you? <<

Okay, you've asked "What is it to you?" five or ten different ways now. Can you say redundant? I get it already. You don't understand my positions. You've made that abundantly clear. Therefore, I've repeated my positions ad nauseam in the hope that they'll sink in this time. Let me know if my approach worked.

>> Are you envious because you don't have the wherewithall to buy a tepee, haul it clear to Europe, and play with it there? <<

Nope, I'm happy in my condo in West LA. Don't want a tepee and don't want to move to Germany.

>> For all I care, they can build hogans in downtown Berlin and it wouldn't be any skin off my nose, so why do YOU get all bent out of shape over stuff like that? You're not even an NDN to begin with, so what is it to YOU anyway? <<

Why write about Native Americans?

>> Why do you, as a white dude, think it's up to you to protect us NDN people against those "mean, evil" Germans anyway? <<

I didn't say May's probable influence on Hitler influenced Native people in any way. Another irrelevant argument I'm not going to debate.

>> Looks to me like during WW2 we saved your beans from the Germans and Japanese and not the other way around. <<

What would "the other way around" be? You saved the beans of the Germans and Japanese from us Americans? Yes, I'd say you were more correct the first time, for what it's worth.

>> So, you're writing your master thesis and found yourself some way-out project for it. <<

"I've written and posted an informal thesis at Adolf Hitler:  A True American. I'm a little far removed from school to be writing an actual thesis. And many scholars have written already about May's influence on Hitler and other Germans, so I'd only be duplicating their work."

>> Great, but don't expect me to appreciate your abuse of our people to further your own ulterior motives. <<

"If I claim America's Manifest Destiny policies of exterminating Indians influenced Hitler's Manifest Destiny-like policies of exterminating Jews, that's a whitewash of America? Check the definition of 'whitewash,' friend, because it's not clear you know what it means."

Since you don't understand what my "main work" is, don't expect me to care what you do or don't appreciate. You chose to dispute my claims, not the other way around.

>> For the life of me, I have no clue as to why I should give a flying fart if the late Adolph Hitler read a book written by the late Karl May or not. <<

Okay, you've asked "What is it to you?" five or ten different ways now. Can you say redundant? I get it already. You don't understand my positions. You've made that abundantly clear. Therefore, I've repeated my positions ad nauseam in the hope that they'll sink in this time. Let me know if my approach worked.

>> The immigration rates from Germany to the US are extremely low, so why should anybody over here even care what they read over there and why? Why should we care if they romanticize over there the NDN people over here, if indeed that's what they do? You still haven't answered that question although I asked you that a gadzillion times already. <<

I've answered it a gadzillion times now.

>> Why in Sam Hill should we NDNs give a shit if the Germans read Karl May's books or not? Care to enlighten me about that? <<

Done. But to belabor the obvious, if America's Indian policies were so egregious they influenced Hitler, through history books and Karl May's books, it says Americans have even more to atone for.

>> Why is your main work in life trashing foreign literature? <<

Who or what gave you that silly opinion? Oh, because I and many scholars have noted May's influence on Germany? I guess you're confused between May's work and "foreign literature." And between "noting" and "trashing."

As for my main work: No one is "commissioning" my work on PEACE PARTY or the Blue Corn Comics website, which has almost 1,000 pages, of which exactly two mention Karl May. But I do have a Board of Native advisors and a large base of Native fans who support my work.

What else does Rob do (besides trash PumaClaw)?
>> Don't you have anything important to do? <<

Yes, the other 950+ pages besides the two on Karl May. Not to mention publishing my comic books...and working on PECHANGA.net...and my other freelance business writing.

>> Why don't you instead critique history text books that are used in schools right here in the US? Now that would be a project worth undertaking, dontcha think? <<

James W. Loewen already did that in his excellent book Lies My Teacher Told Me. I'd say he's another of my fans (and vice versa), although he's not Native. Check out his book if you haven't already.

>> Of course, it's always safer to lash out at foreign countries, eh? <<

I wouldn't know, since I haven't lashed out at foreign countries. Actually, I've spent much of my time critiquing the American mindset, which is considered bad form in America. Visit America's Cultural Mindset

>> At any rate, your obsession with that Karl May is really quite ridiculous. <<

Your obsession with my so-called obsession is what's ridiculous. Fortunately, you've repeated the same three or four points so often that I haven't had to come up with new answers. My previous answers sufficed.

>> Since you never even read any of his books, why do you worry about them anyway? <<

"You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> In fact, since you're so obsessed with his books, why are you afraid of reading them? <<

I'm not afraid of reading anything. Nor do I have an obsession. This is "one of several hundred topics I've written about. And I'm responding to your messages only once every month or so. You're responding immediately, so you must be obsessed."

>> On the other hand, you could try letting that dead man rest in peace, yanno. <<

Sure, and I could let Columbus and Jackson and Custer rest in peace too. Instead, I criticize them when and where I deem it necessary.

The real question is why you're shilling for May's romantic vision of the Old West. Are you being paid by his heirs or something?

Rob

Date: 11-Nov-02 07:41:00 MsgID: OUTBOX MgTo: Pumaclaw@aol.com >INTERNET:Pumaclaw@aol.com Subj: Fwd: I have a stupid question

>> Well, you can stop speculating. Corbut never read any of Karl May's books and never even heard of the guy period, which is what I suspected. <<

Now we know. As for what you suspected, I reiterate:

>> You're assuming, of course, that he read Karl May's books. <<

No, I'm hypothesizing what I hypothesized. Namely,

"Suppose the kid is a proto-neo-Nazi looking for a role model...some American neo-Nazis tell him about Custer...and it resonates with what little he knows about cowboys and Indians from romantic works such as Karl May's books."

Cornut doesn't have to have read May's books in this sequence of suppositions. Maybe he saw a John Wayne movie or a Frederic Remington painting. Same idea: romanticizing the West.

>> I guess that blows your theory all to hell, eh? <<

Nope, it doesn't even touch it. As I explained in August and just repeated.

Since you and Cornut are buddies, why don't you ask him where his interest in Custer came from? I've speculated on several possible sources—parents, friends, schools, movies, books—and I suspect one of my guesses is right.

>> He hates that type of books quite obviously. <<

Unless he was born with a pro-Custer gene, his interest came from somewhere. The question is where. To repeat, I explicitly said he may not have gotten his ideas from May's books. Learn to pay attention so I don't have to repeat myself again.

>> Looks to me like you and this David are about on the same wave length to begin with. <<

Looks to me like you're obsessing about my so-called obsession. So noted.

Now you're claiming I'm on the same wavelength as Cornut? What does that mean...that I agree with him? Wow, you've sure drifted far from the truth into Fantasyland. Did you forget that I started this conflict long ago by choosing Cornut's site as a Stereotype of the Month entry? Apparently so.

Here, refresh your faltering memory: Site Blames Indian "Mutilations" for Custer's Campaigns. And for your sake, do it soon. By equating me with Cornut, you're embarrassing yourself. Badly.

The debate continues (1/3/03)....
Again, for some reason, I answered the same message I answered back in November.

>> Again, nope, they didn't play cowboys and Indians, they really played cops and robbers over there, still do for that matter. <<

Again, yep. Again, your opinion doesn't move me in the slightest. Here's some of the documentation you're lacking ():

>> I really don't know what your obsession with this Karl May is. <<

I don't have an obsession. This is "one of several hundred topics I've written about. And I'm responding to your messages only once every month or so. You're responding immediately, so you must be obsessed."

>> Here's what Hitler himself said about Indians, and I don't see anything mentioned about Karl May period, do you? <<

Ward Churchill alleges that Hitler said it. You didn't even know the source of this quote. I had to look it up for you. And you're criticizing me for my scholarship?

Let's suppose the quote came from one of Hitler's speeches and he intended it to sway the German public. How many political speeches explain the youthful origins of the speaker's beliefs? That you'd even suggest this is somewhat mind-boggling. Politicians rarely go on about their childhood fantasies (e.g., playing cowboys and Indians) when they're trying to look big and important.

>> May didn't protray Indians as an inferior anything, he didn't even really portray them as a race, just as people. <<

I'm not sure Andrew Jackson described Indians as an inferior race rather than as a people. Yet you're willing to cite him as a source of Hitler's beliefs.

"Manifest Destiny was inherent in May's Western books, as scholars have noted. Perhaps you need to read the critical consensus, which states that May's romantic notion of the Old West influenced Germans enormously."

The debate continues (2/11/03)....
>> Geo Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, the Roosevelts, Herbert Hoover, and most of all the Bush family never read Karl May's books so what the hell is their excuse? <<

They grew up in a culture influenced by the same Western mythology—i.e., Westerns and other forms of pulp fiction like May's books. Please learn about Turner's Frontier Thesis and how it shaped the American consciousness so I don't have to explain it.

>> The Bush family was involved in "race hygiene" long before Hitler came to power, they were nazis before the NSDAP came into office. Why don't you look at them? <<

Because whatever the Bush family did didn't influence Hitler's mindset.

>> Why in hell are you trying to lay the blame for 500 years of genocidal policies off on some obscure author in a foreign country who didn't even come on the scene until the 19th/20th century? <<

I'm not blaming 500 years of America's genocidal policies on May's books. I'm partly blaming five years of Nazi Germany's genocidal policies on May's books.

>> They also read other books and move on in life while you're stuck in some groove like a broken record. <<

"I don't have an obsession. This is one of several hundred topics I've written about. And I'm responding to your messages only once every month or so. You're responding immediately, so you must be obsessed."

>> Hey, did you know that it's mostly boys who read those adventure stories? There are women in Germany too, a hell of a lot of them. One of them recently compared Bush to Hitler, and Bush sure as hell never read Karl May. <<

Were there any female leaders in Hitler's Germany? I don't think so. Keep trying to change the topic and I'll keep correcting you.

>> As I said before, that Winnetou character is some sort of Indian superhero, why does that chafe you? <<

It doesn't. Apparently you've misunderstood my thesis, although I've told it to you a dozen times.

>> Do you think this role should be reserved for whites only? <<

Let me know if you're having a problem with my English—in particular, the part where I said I've published a comic book featuring Native American heroes.

>> If anything is detrimental to the white psyche, it's all this Superman, Rambo, Batman bullshit and Karl May didn't invent any of these characters. <<

Tell me something I don't know. I never said May did anything except influence German thinking, including Hitler's. You must be planning to live forever, since you keep wasting time raising irrelevant arguments.

>> Now those characters truly incorporate Manifest Destiny. <<

I agree. And Nietzsche's version of Superman, which isn't too different from Old Shatterhand, probably inspired Hitler too.

>> Funny thing, yanno, Germany never was much into empire building and the 3rd Reich was really a fluke to begin with and lasted only 11 years. <<

Right, which is why we need to look into the specific influences that shaped Hitler.

>> The true empire builders and delusional world rulers are the Anglosaxons, first the Brits and now the Americans, and just how did Karl May influence them? <<

He didn't. Visit my website and learn the roots of Anglo-American imperialism. Try Victor or Victim:  Our New National Anthem? for starters.

>> This is what you have never answered yet. <<

I've answered it plenty of times. If you can't or won't read my answers, that's your problem.

>> Manifest Destiny predates Karl May by leaps and bounds. <<

Not that many leaps and bounds. A half century's worth, maybe.

Hitler fascinated by Manifest Destiny
>> Obviously Hitler was fascinated by the Manifest Destiny idea but he sure didn't get those ideas from Karl May. <<

Yep, he sure did, since May's books were one of the prime conduits of Manifest Destiny to German youths.

>> He obviously got them from the Founding Fathers of the US or the Brits and possibly the Spanish. <<

Through May's books as well as history books.

>> I told you before, read one of those May books and then try to make these screwy combinations. <<

I told you before that the critical consensus agrees with me. Quit ducking the point and address it for once.

>> What's interesting is that this Old Shatterhand character never even immigrates in the US. After each adventure he goes back home. So how does this equate with Manifest Destiny? <<

Whether Shatterhand goes home or not is a trivial detail compared to the overall myth.

>> He never suggests that Germany should conquer America or even annex it or whatever. You're really beating a dead horse to death. <<

Yes, responding to your lengthy messages trying to defend May is akin to beating a dead horse. That's why I save time by quoting myself rather than coming up with new answers to your repetitive questions.

>> Who the hell are those "scholars" anyway? <<

Who the hell are your "contacts" who claim these scholars are wrong? Give me a shred of documentation to support your position before I waste any more time proving you wrong.

>> Move on, man. <<

As soon as you get over your obsession with defending May's books despite all the evidence indicting them, I'll be glad to.

The debate grounds to an end (2/14/03)....
>> It's really not clear to me what exactly Karl May or Adolf Hitler for that matter have to do with American history. Care to enlighten me? <<

I've tried, but the task seems hopeless.

>> I really have no idea what you're harping around on. <<

Obviously.

>> Are you saying that the nazis did not have their affiliates in the US? Are you saying that Andrew Jackson's policies were created by Karl May? Are you telling me that genocide and slavery as the foundation of the US as a whole was due to Karl May's books? What exactly are you saying here? <<

Adolf Hitler:  A True American
Adolf Hitler:  A True American

>> Germany had absolutely no influence on American history, and post-Karl-May Germany damn sure didn't, so what exactly is your point? <<

Adolf Hitler:  A True American
Adolf Hitler:  A True American

>> The Trail of Tears, the Long Walk, all these other forced Indian removals had already taken place by the time Karl May wrote his first book but you keep holding him responsible for all of this? <<

I'm pretty much done repeating myself for your benefit. Get someone to translate my messages if you can't read them. Here it is one more time:

"You need to keep track of what I'm arguing. I didn't say May's books influenced Indian policies in America. I said they influenced Hitler's policies against Jews and other minorities in the 1930s and 1940s. That influence came after the publication of May's books, not before."

>> Do you think Hitler wouldn't have pulled his coup in 1933 if Karl May had never written any books? <<

Who knows what Hitler would've done if he'd had a different childhood? Do you think he was fated to be evil from his day of birth? Since you argued against that position previously, you must not have thought through your positions very well. Or you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

>> Even if Karl May's books may have influenced the views of modern Germans regarding the Wild West, why the hell should anybody even care? <<

Who asked you or anyone to care? Why don't you get over your obsession with defending May and move on?

>> The man wrote fiction stories and they sure as hell don't influence the Germans' views regarding current US policies, that's for sure. <<

Don't they? Germany generally supports US policy. We'll see if Germany actively opposes this US-led war.

>> So what's your point exactly? I don't think I'm clear about this. <<

Obviously.

>> I usually answer my mail as soon as possible. Sorry if that disturbs you. <<

Just helping you understand that you're the obsessive one, not me. If that isn't enough, a psychiatrist may be able to help you with your obsessive-compulsive behavior.

>> Actually, what I'm wondering about is why you think a guy in France has to justify to you his personal take on some historical event. <<

I merely posted his site as a Stereotype of the Month entry. He found out about it because other people e-mailed him about the entry. He chose to respond to me and then I questioned him.

If he didn't like my questions, he should've stayed out of my inbox. Anyone who challenges me gets challenged in turn. As I tell everyone, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

In short, I minded my own business until he contacted me. He can take the blame for everything that followed.

>> Fact is, yanno, they learn history in French schools. Custer's last stand is mentioned. <<

Yes, I think I told you that about six months ago.

>> Most students over there consider Custer an asswipe but there are always those who insist on being different and therefore taking the opposite stand just to show their youthful individualism, so in doing that, Corbut apparently decided to jump to the side of po' li'l ol' Custer. <<

The question was why Cornut took a different position. Perhaps he was influenced by a German neighbor's love of the Old West. Perhaps he saw a John Wayne movie on French TV and fell in love. Who knows?

Who cares what Cornut thinks?
>> Tell me, what difference does it make to us over here what some French teenager thinks about anything? <<

I don't particularly care what he thinks. I just post the entries in my contest and defend my postings when someone questions them.

>> Well, you see, it was really quite easy to shoot down your pet theory about Corbut having been influenced by Karl May, it took me less than a minute to send the guy an email and ask him outright. <<

It was easy to shoot down the straw-man theory you invented, you mean. As for what I actually said, here it is again. Hope it sinks in deeper this time than it did the last few times:

"Suppose the kid is a proto-neo-Nazi looking for a role model...some American neo-Nazis tell him about Custer...and it resonates with what little he knows about cowboys and Indians from romantic works such as Karl May's books.

"Cornut doesn't have to have read May's books in this sequence of suppositions. Maybe he saw a John Wayne movie or a Frederic Remington painting. Same idea: romanticizing the West."

If Cornut learned about Custer from an enthusiastic teacher at school...perhaps this teacher was a neo-Nazi who favored a romantic view of the Old West. Which fits my theory that someone or something exposed him to a a romantic view of the Old West.

Do you understand my position now?

>> You should have done that yourself instead of expanding endlessly on your faulty pet theory. <<

You expanded endlessly on your faulty interpretation of my theory. Since the mistake was yours, I'm glad you're the one who wasted your time correcting it.

>> As for what exactly influenced Corbut's way of thinking, heck, why don't you just ask him? <<

As I just said, I don't particularly care what he thinks. In addition, he's proved his inability to answer my questions in our past communications. He's kind of like you in that regard. I'm not wasting much more time with either of you on these points.

>> Heck, I saw ONE John Wayne movie in my whole life, had no Indians in it, and I was wondering why that old fart got to ride off into the sunset with a woman that looked young enough to be his granddaughter. Dunno what's romantic about that unless you're into cradle-robbing old coots. <<

Do some research into how our culture has romanticized the Old West. I'm not about to waste a second explaining the whole subject to you.

>> As for Remington's paintings, what do you suggest? That we burn them all? <<

I suggest that they're one of many possible sources for Cornut's romantic notion of Custer as a hero.

>> Tell ya what, under the 1st amendment, yanno, freedom of opinion, people can romanticize whatever they choose to romanticize, be that the Old West, the Young West, the Middle-Aged West, or the Far East. The French have a similar provision in their Constitution, so what's your point? <<

My point is above. Thanks for wasting five minutes of your life explaining the First Amendment to me, but I studied it 30-plus years ago in junior high school. You might want to use your time more productively.

>> It sure strikes me as odd that you howl endlessly about this jackass in France nobody ever heard of but don't launch a protest in Ohio against that statue of Custer. <<

I'm not howling endlessly. I'm responding to your obsessive messages about Cornut as well as your obsessive messages about May. As for why you're so obsessed, you'll have to ask your psychiatrist about that.

I cover monuments that deserve toppling at Best Indian Monuments to Topple. James W. Loewen's book is the definitive one on the subject so far and I'm not about to duplicate his work.

>> Why's that? Care to enlighten me? <<

I hope you're now enlightened. You didn't pay attention when I told you I've covered hundreds of topics. Too bad you didn't check before guessing that I hadn't covered biased or offensive statues. I had, forcing me to embarrass you once again.

>> See, that's the funny thing about freedom of opinion: You have the right to your personal opinions and everybody else has the right to either agree with you or not to agree with you. <<

Another sentence that's a waste of time. Fortunately, it took you longer to write it than it took me to read it.

>> I honestly stand here and wonder why anybody would consider the era prior to the Civil Rights Act worth getting nostalgic over, but you worry about someone romanticizing the Old West? <<

I'm not worried about Cornut. Since you keep obsessing about the origin of his fixation, you must be worried about it.

>> Tell ya what, the Old West is the least of our worries because no matter what anyone thinks about it, it ain't gonna come back. <<

It never left. It's embedded deep in our culture. See the Frontier Thesis at America's Cultural Roots for more details.

>> The current erosion of our civil liberties here is something we all should concern ourselves with because Joe McCarthy sure enjoys quite a comeback. <<

Another subject I cover almost daily at News from a Multicultural Perspective. Read it and learn.

Addendum
In 2006 I finally read May's first volume about Old Shatterhand, Winnetou. Not surprisingly, it pretty much went as I expected and confirmed what I thought. See Adolf Hitler:  A True American for my comments on the book.

Join our Native/pop culture blog and comment   Sign up to receive our FREE newsletter via e-mail   See the latest Native American stereotypes in the media   Political and social developments ripped from the headlines

. . .