Another response to Hopis vs. Big Mountain Trespassers. This is from list moderator Mike Wicks, who deleted one of my Hopi-Navajo postings from his list. That posting essentially quoted the key players in the dispute, as I've done on my Big Mountain page, but Wicks felt the quotes were too dangerous for his list to see.

Should you ever join a list moderated by Wicks, be advised he censors postings he doesn't like. It's a telling indictment of someone who claims to seek the truth. Always ask yourself who's willing to quote or cite sources and who isn't.

Here are Wicks's post-censorship remarks and my replies:

>> If all you want to do is push the Peabody bullshit, do it somewhere else. <<

I didn't know the Hopi and Navajo tribes were appendages of Peabody Coal. Not to mention Pres. Bill Clinton, Sen. John McCain, and all the judges who have independently ruled for the Hopi. Thank God those poor resisters are the only people in America Peabody hasn't bought off.

Censoring postings, eh? Sounds like someone's afraid of the truth.

Actually, I'm "pushing" the position of the sovereign Hopi Tribe. Ever hear of it? Progressive and traditional Hopis are almost united in desiring their land back.

I'd respond to your response, but it's pointless if you're going to censor my messages. If you'd like to send me your response, I'll respond to it in some less censored forums. I may even post your comments on my site if they have any validity.

>> Peabody coal wants people to believe there is a dispute between the Hopi and the Dineh' people. You are assisting them in their quest. <<

I've quoted the Hopi people on my site. Their words speak for themselves.

>> They are wrong, and you are wrong. It is false, it is a lie. <<

I trust you'll prove that charge. So far you haven't.

>> Senator Slimeball McCain authored the bill to force the removal of Dineh' people from their traditional homeland. <<

Right, because the Navajo are trespassing on Hopi land, as several courts have ruled. I'd love to see your evidence that Peabody and the BIA control the courts, too.

"Slimeball"...is that an example of the quality of your counterarguments? If so, the Hopi people have nothing to worry about.

>> Further, that relocation would place them on radioactive contaminated lands <<

That issue is totally separate from whether the relocation decision is legitimate.

>> You may construe that he is helping the Hopi from those facts, but the truth is -- he is killing Dineh' people! <<

I construe it because the Hopi people construe it. As for the area to which the Navajo are being relocated, the Navajo Nation is huge. There are many places the trespassers could go. If the BIA and the Navajo government are forcing them onto contaminated land, that's a problem they should work out together.

To reiterate: Whether the Navajo should relocate and where they should relocate to are two separate questions. The facts warrant relocation even if the chosen destination is poor.

>> No, not censoring -- moderating. I did not change your post by eliminating words or phrases, I simply did not allow the post to reach the list. <<

Semantics. You censored my whole post, not bits and pieces of it. Anyone who censors whole posts is likely to censor parts of posts too. Especially if they make him look bad.

>> Much the same as I would do if someone were falsely screaming "FIRE" when there was no fire. <<

Thanks for admitting my quotes were scary and you were afraid they'd burn you. That's what I thought.

I'm still waiting for that evidence you spoke of. Is it coming up? So far, the only false thing here is your charge that I lied.

>> Your "facts" are lies and propaganda put forth by Peabody coal and the BIA. <<

Nope, they come largely from the Hopi people, including the traditional elders. As you'd know if you visited my Big Mountain page.

>> Learn the truth before you spout such things. <<

I know the truth. I've posted it on my site. I'm waiting for you or anyone to dispute it.

>> You are "pushing" exactly what the Peabody coal and BIA propaganda machine wants you to push -- more lies. <<

For some reason, I'm reminded of a dog baying at the moon. I wonder why.

Once again, your squawking "lies" like a parrot doesn't make it so. What I'm "pushing" is direct quotes from the Hopi people. If you claim that Peabody Coal and the BIA dictated to the Hopi people 50, 100, and 150 years ago, please provide the evidence. Put up or shut up, now.

Is your whole response going to be content-free, or what? I wait with bated breath.

>> You push the lie that the Hopi are behind this action of relocation. They are not. <<

I've quoted Hopi people to that effect. You do understand the concept of quoting, don't you? These quotes are primary sources for the Hopi people's beliefs. They believe the land Masaawu granted them ages ago is theirs.

>> however, they [the Tribal Council] do NOT speak the feeling of the Hopi people. <<

Luckily, I've quoted the Hopi people themselves, rendering your argument moot. The Hopi people have asserted sovereignty over their land regardless of what their Tribal Council says or does. That's been their position since before the white man arrived.

>> Your site has no validity, so no -- do NOT post my comments. <<

I didn't ask whether I could post your comments. I asked whether you wanted to contribute your so-called evidence. I'll post whatever I please, thank you very much.

If that makes you tremble, you're welcome not to respond anymore. Stick with your pro-Navajo propaganda and ignore the overwhelming evidence on my site and elsewhere. Keep censoring the facts and hope nobody else notices.

>> I provided you with verifiable facts and statements from Dineh' people. <<

Not in this message you didn't. And Navajo "facts and statements" are irrelevant to determining the will of the Hopi people. Hopi facts and statements determine it, and I've posted plenty of them.

As I said, if you're not afraid to debate the subject in a forum where you can't censor me, pony up. I'll refute whatever arguments you have in any unbiased venue.

>> You chose to ignore the facts and continue the lies and propaganda from Peabody. <<

What facts do you think I've ignored? Considering your message is almost fact-free, you're starting to sound silly. And you apparently haven't visited my site recently or at all, because it's loaded with Hopi testimony about their land rights. So much for your opinion of its validity.

>> If you are truly interested enough to put up a website, you should also be intersted enough to check the facts and not just publish the Peabody propaganda. <<

I've checked, as you'd know if you read the dozen or so quotes on my site. Over the last ten years, I've perused hundreds of books, articles, videos, websites, and postings on the Hopi-Navajo dispute. I interviewed the elected chairman of the Hopi Tribe, who was also a religious leader. How about you?

Again, I've quoted some of those hundreds of sources on my website. If you can contradict any of them, please do so.

>> Have you been to Big Mountain? <<

As of this posting, no. Have you? More important, have you visited the Hopi reservation (excluding Big Mountain)? Have you visited the Hopi tribal headquarters to prove or disprove the alleged Peabody/BIA puppetry? Because that seems to be the crux of our disagreement. I have and I'm guessing you haven't.

Incidentally, I haven't been to China, Bosnia, or Israel either, yet I have knowledge and opinions of all those places. I don't need to see dirt and rocks to take a position on a region's legal, social, or political history.

>> Have you talked with the people, either Hopi or Dineh'? <<

Yes. I've talked to enough people to publish an article in a national magazine on the subject. How about you? Have you read even one book written by a Hopi, for instance? If so, it isn't obvious from your propaganda piece.

FYI, I've read more than 20 books by or about the Hopi. That doesn't include books about the Navajo or other Indians that mention the Hopi. Again, let me know if you have even 1/20th the Hopi information that I do.

>> Try it. <<

Already tried and accomplished. Try refuting this: "To us it is unthinkable to give up control over our sacred lands to non-Hopis." Statement by traditional Hopi elders in support of a suit against Peabody Coal, 1971.

Whoosh. Luckily I didn't have to hold my bated breath long. Another "debater" who offers nothing except empty charges of "lies." Surprise, surprise.

So far you haven't touched my arguments, friend. I wish you better luck next time. Try providing facts rather than verbiage if you want to debate the subject intelligently.

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