Another response to Hopis vs. Big Mountain Trespassers:

>> You better do some homework. <<

I've done it, thanks. I've studied this issue for some ten years. How about you?

>> The issue is not nearly as simple, at Big Mountain as you seem to think. <<

Isn't it? You couldn't tell by all the Navajo propaganda out there. This propaganda never argues the issues based on the facts. All it does is appeal to emotions with sob stories about the resisters and the so-called "genocide."

Here's a clue for you. There's no such thing as "Corporate Hopi," as the resisters call their fellow Indians. The Hopi Tribal Council was elected same as every other tribal council in the US, including the Navajo Nation's tribal council. It's contemptible to pick one council out of many and label it a puppet regime. It's a Nazi-style Big Lie.

You want to know how simple this issue is? Hopi inhabited land for 800+ years. Navajo moved onto land some 400 years later. Courts rightly ruled for original owners. End of story.

>> Just because the Dine' practice transhumance, does not exclude them from occupying an area or make them into some kind of savage or inferior. <<

I'm pretty sure I haven't said the Navajo are savage or inferior on my site. If you want to quote something to the contrary for me, please do. I'll consider modifying it.

The Hopi have welcomed the Navajo to stay on the Hopi Partitioned Land. All the illegal squatters have to do is sign 75-year leases and they can live their lives freely. What's the problem with that? It's a more-than-fair compromise considering the Hopi won the dispute.

>> Sounds like your information comes from the Whole Earth Catalog. <<

Nope. A lot of it comes from reputable newspapers and books. More comes from the Hopi Tribe itself. You know, the people who have occupied the land for the last 800+ years? Presumably they know best whom their land belongs to.

I'd love to hear whom you think bought and paid for the US judges who have independently ruled for the Hopi. Do you have any evidence about these "corrupt" judges? And who paid Sen. John McCain to say Peabody has no interest in Big Mountain (March 2000)? Did his Vietnamese captors brainwash him? Are you calling this war hero a liar?

If you have any evidence of payoffs to judges or senators, please present it. Otherwise, I suggest you drop the argument. I doubt you have a leg to stand on.

Another one bites the dust
>> As someone who has been involved in the legal profession I hardly think it worth my time to debate someone who starts by implying that I am a Nazi or that I am somehow using Nazi tactics. <<

I said the propaganda used by the resisters is Nazi-style propaganda. I didn't say anything about your use of propaganda.

What were you...a legal filing clerk? If this is the quality of your responses, I'm glad you didn't favor me with one.

I hardly think it worth my time to debate with someone who started by condescendingly suggesting I needed to do homework or got my information from a catalog. But I deigned to try.

Apparently, I know a lot more on the subject than you do. Judging by your content-free response, at least.

>> Your arguments about the arrival of Navajos and Hopis in the area are based on academic theory (outdated theory). <<

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. My arguments are based on actual quotes from the Hopi leaders of this century and people who knew the Hopi leaders of last century. As far as I know, no source material more immedidate than that exists. They all talk of the Navajo arriving after the Hopi were already there.

If you defined "academic theory" as "direct quotes from the people involved," you might have a case. But in reality, they're polar opposites. Check your law dictionary or any other dictionary if you're unclear on the concept.

Speaking of "outdated," I quoted an Indian lawyer on my site who verified the Hopi are, indeed, a sovereign nation run by their democratically elected council. He offered that opinion a few months ago. If you have a more recent legal opinion from someone more qualified, provide it.

>> Ten years of study does not make you, sir, some kind of insider. <<

A failure to debate, or to justify your initial condescension, doesn't make you anything. Nor does marrying a Navajo somewhere in the vicinity give you any knowledge of Hopi history.

>> I am not going to change your mind or make you look anywhere for the truth. <<

You won't change my mind because you're unwilling to debate the facts. Like so many others of your ilk. So noted.

As for the truth, I've posted it on my site. Clearly, you're not going to be the first to disprove the information listed. Again, so noted.

Correspondent admits being closeminded
>> You will not change my mind <<

Yes, don't let the facts get in the way of your mind.

>> I lived there in the 70's and the situation there affects my children. <<

And how long were you there: a couple of months? Did you do the "traditional Navajo Sun Dance" back then? What about the traditional Navajo potlatch or luau?

I'm told you're a white woman who (maybe) married a Navajo. Unlike me, you apparently suffer a conflict of interest. The situation affects your children...so your emotions have blinded you to the truth?

Let me know when you have anything to say about the Hopi side of the conflict. Let me know when you even acknowledge the Hopi side. I suspect you're not an insider at all when it comes to their issues. In other words, the real issues, as the courts have ruled.

>> I suggest you and Bill Havens go have some coffee listen to each other's "truths." You will obviously feel better. <<

I feel better knowing you're the umpteenth person too afraid or uneducated to touch my arguments. Next time you decide to waste my time e-mailing me, I suggest you come armed with facts, not feelings from the Whole Earth Catalog. And be sure to do your homework first.

Ho-hum. Another SDN "defender" who challenged me, then—when challenged to justify her challenge—turned tail and ran. What a surprise—not.

Is there a single one of these defenders who can debate the merits of his or her position? If so, I haven't met the person yet.

A friend comes to ya-ZZZZ's rescue
>> She has the good judgment to know when she is attacked personally and to refuse to engage further. <<

Good for Yazzie. In her initial, unsolicited message to me, she had the bad judgment to tell me "You better do some homework" and "Sounds like your information comes from the Whole Earth Catalog" (exact quotes). When someone criticizes me in that condescending way, she can expect me to defend myself.

Yazzie is a hypocrite if she complained after attacking me and my posting first. As I said to her, I don't need to debate anyone who can dish it out but can't take it. Good riddance to all propagandists and shills who can't justify their positions with facts.

My Big Mountiain page quotes at least twenty sources supporting my position, which is about 20 more than any resister has ever offered. When someone has twenty sources that refute my 20 sources, then she can talk about how I need to do more homework. Until then, such comments are repugnant to anyone who champions the truth.

In short, the homework is there, and it sure as hell didn't come from any Whole Earth Catalog. I've identified the source in every case. Dispute this "homework" or don't, but don't waste my time saying it doesn't exist. It does.

>> She is at this moment engaged with me in trying to help someone to whom she is politically opposed. <<

How...by insulting that person's knowledge? I know lots of people trying to help others. That doesn't give them a free pass to criticize me without prompting.

>> You men sit down. <<

I was sitting when I wrote the previous message. I'm still sitting. I plan to continue sitting while I type.

>> I know her to be a woman of great courage, severe trials, a questing mind and a doubting heart. <<

She didn't question or doubt anything in her message to me except my knowledge of the issues. It doesn't take much courage to call me ignorant and then vamoose when I challenge her to back up her charge. Her actions are a lot closer to what I'd call cowardice than courage, frankly.

Treat insulter with respect?
>> I ask that you all treat her with respect, whether you prefer to or not. <<

I treated Yazzie with more respect than she treated me. She came in insulting my knowledge of the Hopi-Navajo dispute. When I demanded evidence, she refused to provide it. Instead she turned tail and ran, claiming I'd accused her of Nazi-style propaganda.

That allegation is false, and I have the original messages to prove it. I don't need anyone offering insults and assertions devoid of content. If that's her only agenda, I suggest she stay out of my inbox. Or I'll kick her butt out, metaphorically speaking.

I give people the respect I receive. It's called the Golden Rule, or a variation of it, and I try to live by it. I suggest you and others do the same.

>> I ask that because in this instance I know she is not an enemy of sovereignty, or of the Hopi people. <<

No? Then let her say so rather than practice hit-and-run tactics.

Below are three of the Big Lies the resisters and their supporters perpetuate. They qualify as Nazi-style propaganda because the actual truth is incredibly well-documented. It's so well-documented I'd say it's incontrovertible.

As far as I know, there isn't a shred of objective evidence justifying these false statements. But the resisters and their supporters continue to assert them as true. They're lying as much as Hitler did when he accused Jews of crimes against humanity.

And for much the same reason: to whittle their enemies' rights into nothingness. When will the resisters draw a line and say, "Beyond this line we will not go"? Where exactly do they think Navajo sovereignty ends and Hopi sovereignty begins? An inch south of Big Mountain? A mile? Twenty miles? Where? (Please specify precise map coordinates if you choose to answer this.)

Here are three of the biggest lies the resisters perpetuate:

• The present Hopi Tribal Council wasn't elected democratically and doesn't legally represent the Hopi people in external government affairs. (TRUE or FALSE?)
• The Hopi people aren't sovereign over the land within their severely diminished boundaries, which happen to include Big Mountain. (TRUE or FALSE?)
• The Hopi people haven't resided on their historic tutsqua since at least AD 1200, or at least twice as long as any documented Navajo presence. (TRUE or FALSE?)

If Yazzie wants to show her questing mind and respect for other people—especially the Hopi people—let her address these statements. Let her answer whether they're true or false. Let's all answer them to see who respects whom.

False, false, and false.

Pointing out lies isn't a "personal attack" unless someone feels he or she has a right to deceive others. And every resister or supporter I've heard has proclaimed these falsehoods true. That makes these people textbook examples of Hitler-style Big Liars.

Rob

One more round with ya-ZZZZ (12/2/01)
>> It is obvious that you are digging up very old mail in order to set up a straw man. <<

No, I dug up the old mail to prove to several onlookers, including your friend Martha Ture, that you instigated the insults against me. She and the others now know the truth.

>> I am not going for it. <<

Who cares whether you're going for it? The facts are the facts. You insulted me first and then turned tail and ran when I challenged you to back up your claims.

>> Your argument is without value as far as I am concerned <<

Your arguments are without evidence and apparently without conviction, since you were too scared to justify your initial insults. I guess you got those arguments from the Whole Earth Catalog.

>> and your descent into trying to discredit me by implying that I was merely a file clerk are not worthy of discussion. <<

You remain a legal file clerk as far as I'm concerned—in ability if not in job title. I can safely say that because you've yet to provide anything resembling a fact. Compared to you, a file clerk looks like Clarence Darrow.

>> Cheap propaganda tactics will only get you put on the twits and twinkie block. <<

You should know. You seem to be there already.

I haven't used propaganda tactics in my Big Mountain posting. I've quoted dozens of sources and you didn't address one of them. Apparently your Whole Earth Catalog doesn't have anything to say about the fact of the Hopi's 800-year sovereignty over their tutsqua.

>> Don't bother me again. <<

That's hysterical considering you bothered me first. What are you going to do, insult me again? Start crying like a baby?

Next time, don't challenge people's knowledge unless you're brave enough to support your claims. In other words, if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Don't send messages **first** if you can't handle the responses.

Bye-bye, 'fraidy-cat. Better luck next time.

Rob

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