A response to Hopis vs. Big Mountain Trespassers:

>> I noticed your Hopi Corporation spin message (an old Eugene Kaye -- PR guy for Hopi Corp. release). <<

If I linked to it on my site, it's still current. The facts haven't changed.

I believe Kaye is or was an elected official, if that's what you mean by "PR guy." You do know most tribes elect their officials these days, don't you?

>> Before you print Hopi Corp. hype, learn the facts. <<

I know them, thanks. I suggest you learn them.

Here are some facts I'm betting you can't touch. I've read the last several years' worth of Hopi newspapers. They report every agenda item and vote of the Hopi Tribal Council—hundreds of them per year. Nowhere is there any mention of deliberations or plans involving Peabody and its coal.

Hopi is like any small town of 10,000 people. It's almost impossible to keep a secret there, and different factions routinely air long lists of grievances. Despite Hopi's well-known penchant for privacy, books by Westerners have revealed almost every aspect of their sacred religion.

But with all the internecine battles, all the intense scrutiny from outside, I've yet to see a shred of documentation linking the Hopi to a conspiracy. If you have such documentation, feel free to provide it...now. Otherwise, go do your homework and get back to me when you're done.

>> Big Mountain is sacred land. <<

Yes. It's sacred to the Hopi, who have occupied and owned the "rights" to it for some 700 or 800 years. More, if you count their Hisatsinom (Anasazi) ancestors.

It's also sacred to the Navajo, but the Hopi were there first. Most of the Navajo families have been there only three generations.

But the Navajo can stay on Hopi land and exercise their religion freely by signing leases. So what's the problem?

"Hopi Corporation"?
>> Hopi Corporation is only interested in pushing these peaceful elders off their sacred land so that it can lease it to Peabody Coal for strip mining profits. <<

There's no such thing as the "Hopi Corporation." There's no coal at Big Mountain, according to Sen. John McCain. Call him a liar and I suspect he'll punch you in the nose.

Now that you know this, tell me a fact you think I don't know. I'm waiting with bated breath.

>> There are human rights violations going on...and yes, genocide. <<

Don't think so. If you have some specifics, trot them out and I'll show you where you're mistaken.

Here's a news flash: Governments relocate citizens every day. A freeway comes through and people gotta move. If you think every instance of relocation is a human rights violation, I suggest you start protesting nationwide. Otherwise, your concern in this instance seems like a sham.

>> Learn the truth by visiting www.senaa.org <<

I've visited that website. It's Navajo propaganda, almost devoid of real facts. No doubt it's supported by the "Navajo Corporation" and their PR flacks in Washington.

I've studied this issue in depth for some ten years, friend. I've interviewed Hopi leaders who weren't beholden to anyone except their people. I've published an article about the conflict in a national magazine. How about you?

When you can refute a single argument on the Hopi website I cited, be my guest. Until then, forgive me for wondering which of us knows the facts.

The debate continues....
>> Kaye is a spin doctor for the HOPI CORPORATION. <<

In other words, he was an elected member of the Tribal Council. As I thought. And you're one of the spin doctors for the Navajo trespassers, I take it?

More important, the press release was signed by several Hopi individuals, not by Kaye. He was merely the person to contact for more information. If this is the quality of your arguments, no wonder I'm educating you rather than vice versa.

>> There IS such a thing! It's called 'Tribal Council.' <<

Your saying it doesn't make it so. Not even if you say it twice as loud or long. Debates are won by evidence, not by exclamation points.

I trust you can document how and when the Council was incorporated. Not how and when it was formed, which I already know, but how and when it was incorporated. Good luck.

>> White man's law and tribal council greed make Big Mountain Hopi land. <<

No, the Hopi's 800-year-old cultural claims...evidenced by thousands of ruins, shrines, and petroglyphs that predate the Navajo....bolstered by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo...make it Hopi land. But at least we agree it's Hopi land.

Perhaps you'll document the Hopi plan to mine Big Mountain right after you document their incorporation proceedings? Uh-huh, sure you will.

>> Creator's law keeps it sacred Dine'h land. <<

So when the Hopi occupied the land some 400 years before the Navajo arrived, you're saying Masaawu gave the land to the Navajo, not to the Hopi? Wow, someone sure has misled the Hopi, including the traditionalists. Who was it...the BIA?

But that's odd. I wonder why Masaawu didn't give the land to the Hopi people who were living on it? I wonder why he gave it to the Navajo, who were in Canada then? Wouldn't it have made more sense to give the Canadian Athabascans (i.e., the Navajo) a Canadian homeland? I don't get it.

Trespassers can't document claims—or won't
>> There's a big difference, but you wouldn't know that. <<

I wouldn't know it from your non-documentation of yet another claim. Go ahead and document how the Hopi people don't consider the HPL—indeed, the entire Hopi tutsqua—sacred to the Hopi.

I'll even make you a 2-for-1 offer. For every claim you can document by a Hopi tribal member that the Hopi tutsqua isn't sacred to the Hopi, I'll document two Hopi members who say it is. Is that a deal, or what?

>> The Dine'h aren't about to sign wasichu papers so they can catch a train to Sanders and wallow in nuclear waste. <<

They probably aren't about to sign "wasichu" papers because the Navajo word for Anglos is "bilagaana," not "wasichu" (or "wasicu," the usual spelling). As anyone who knew the rudiments of Navajo culture would know.

>> And what the hell is the 'peace party?' Peace of what, Dine'h land? <<

"Peace" of Hopi land, you mean. No, the name "Peace Party" reflects the fact that "Hopi" means "people of peace." The Peace Party team wouldn't harm a flea, even fleas illegally on Hopi territory, like the trespassers.

>> Governments have no right to relocate those of soverign nations, and that includes the Dine'h. <<

As I said, governments relocate people constantly. The sovereign Hopi Tribe has the sovereign right to do as it pleases on its land. That includes relocating trespassers who have lost every case that has come to court before an independent judge.

Fortunately, the Hopi were kind enough to offer the trespassers generous leases so they could stay on Hopi land. The trespassers won't sign the treaties because they don't want the land. They want control over Hopi sovereignty.

>> They can relocate people like you who have to tie to the land. But not soverign nations. Check it out. <<

Nothing to check. The Hopi are a sovereign nation; the Diné trespassers aren't. End of story.

I'm clear on what a sovereign nation has the legal and moral right to do on its own land. Are you? If you're unclear on the point, you may want to check it out.

Sovereignty means boundaries
Speaking of education, let's take a short quiz and see how you do:

1) How many sovereign Indian nations are there in the US?

2) Are the Hopi Tribe and Navajo Nation two of them?

3) Do all sovereign nations have borders or boundaries?

4) Do the Hopi Tribe and Navajo Nation have borders or boundaries?

If you've made it this far, here's the tough question. Don't worry...this is an open-book quiz. Get out your reference sources so you can back up your answer.

5) What are the boundaries of the Hopi Tribe and the Navajo Nation? To put it another way, at what point does Hopi sovereignty end and Navajo or US sovereignty begin? Please cite a source—any source—for your answer.

>> SENAA is the keeper of the truth...Traditional Hopi and Dine'h. <<

Mm-hm, right. Why don't you list all the so-called traditional Hopi who support your position? We'll see how many of the 10,000+ members of the sovereign Hopi nation that is.

While you're doing that, I've added quotes from ten or so traditional Hopi leaders—including Mina Lansa, kikmongwi of Old Oraibi—who made it crystal-clear the Hopi deny any non-Hopis the right to control their land. Go ahead and rebut their claims, if you can. They're located at your home-away-from-home, Hopi vs. Big Mountain Trespassers.

Perhaps the biggest fraud your type perpetuates is that most of the Hopi don't practice their age-old religion or hold their lands sacred. In fact, there's no separate group of traditional Hopi because all Hopi share some traditional beliefs. If there were a separate group of traditional Hopi, it would be a minority of the whole tribe. The whole tribe determines what the Hopi believe, not some small subset of it.

That's why I asked you to list all the so-called traditional Hopi that support your point of view. Because you can't or won't do it. It's another in a long series of instances where you have no evidence for your position.

Quoting the people involved
By the way, here's a helpful hint if you ever try to back up your claims. Don't simply refer to your site, which is self-referential by definition and therefore a circular approach. Point to an actual quote from a Hopi traditionalist.

That's what I've done on my site: quoted not one set of Hopi traditional leaders, but two sets. They support my position: that Hopi land belongs to the Hopi. People visiting my site can see the quotes with their own eyes. If they want to examine the original document, I can copy it and mail it to them.

That's called using primary sources, which is something scholars and other seekers of truth do. These sources help people see through the fabrications of others. If you learn to use primary sources rather than silly names like "Hopi Corporation," you too may win debates someday.

To sum it up: Hopi traditionalists claim ownership of Hopi land. Primary sources say so, in black and white. Case most firmly closed.

>> I've been involved in the Dine'h struggle for as long as you've been supporting Hopi Corporation. <<

You mean you've been involved with the Navajo trespassers as long as I've supported the original People of Peace? Why didn't you say so?

Funny how you don't seem to understand the concept of sovereignty. But clearly you do understand propaganda techniques, judging by your parroting of the "Hopi Corporation" gibe. Yep, you've got your pat phrases down pat.

Of course, even corporations can own property and expel trespassers. So even if you were right about a Hopi "corporation"—which you aren't—you'd still be wrong about the "rights" of Navajo trespassers. Oops.

Whether the Hopi are a "corporation," as you seem to think, or an 800-year-old tribe, as everyone who isn't consumed by propaganda thinks, they own their land. The people who live on land they don't own are trespassers, by definition.

>> I've done as much or more than you. <<

That's not obvious from your emotional outbursts, which are unsupported by anything resembling facts. You're talking like someone who knows nothing except the propaganda someone has fed him. Which explains why you keep casting aspersions rather than presenting evidence.

But I'm curious. Give me an idea of how many times you've visited the Hopi reservation. How many Hopi you've personally talked to. How many books and articles you've read on the Hopi. Etc.

Given the amount of research I've done for my comic book, I'm guessing you haven't done as much as I have. For instance, compare the hundreds of pages on my www.bluecorncomics.com site to your little www.senaawest.org. End of story, again?

Correspondent can't handle truth
>> Don't ever tell me there is no Hopi Corporation <<

Or what...you'll invent an even bigger lie? THERE IS NO HOPI CORPORATION. Stop ranting and start providing facts, if you have any.

I think I can guess the source of your confusion. Someone told you how the BIA and the mining interests helped form the Hopi Tribal Council in 1934. There's little question about that. Here are the facts from Groundwater Mining on Black Mesa, a good writeup of 20th-century Hopi history:

Unfortunately, you seem to have confused the Council's origin with its evolution into a modern tribal government. The Council formed almost 3/4 of a century ago. It signed its coal leases almost half a century ago. That's ancient history, not evidence against today's Council.

>> that you're not a member of their Board. <<

If I'm a member of their "Board," where are my pay and perks? Is the check in the mail?

Corporation, government...same thing?
Unfortunately, the Hopi Tribe doesn't have a board. It has a democratically-elected council. Didn't your spin meisters explain the difference between a board and a council, or between a corporation and a government?

If the Hopi Tribe had a board, there's no way I could or would be a member of it. I'm not affiliated with any organization, unless you count my membership in the Planetary Society. True, I have my own board of advisors, but they're affiliated with me, not vice versa.

Just curious again, but do you have any firsthand or even secondhand knowledge of the Hopi? Your misunderstanding of Hopi sovereignty suggests you don't. In fact, the way you keep misusing words—"board" instead of "council," "wasichu" [sic] instead of "bilagaana"—suggests you're cribbing from a textbook or something. You need to do better than that if you plan to stay in this debate.

>> And don't ever think that Dine'h supporters all over the world will ever stop standing with The People in the face of wasichu greed. <<

With your talent for propaganda, I don't doubt it.

Of course, the Hopi also call themselves "The People," as do many Native people. You might want to clarify that in future propaganda messages. Specify that you don't mean Indian, Navajo, or Hopi people. You mean a teeny, tiny subset of Navajo people: three dozen out of 200,000, to be more precise.

Meanwhile, I'm awaiting your documentation of how the US government, the BIA, the Hopi Tribe, Peabody Coal, or anyone is acting to obtain the nonexistent coal under Big Mountain. Go ahead and prove that along with everything else you've claimed. Go ahead and prove anything you've claimed to me.

After two messages, you still haven't provided a single fact I didn't know. Why not? Are you saving the concrete evidence for upcoming rants? If I were you, I wouldn't wait too long. Your content-free sloganeering isn't doing you much good.

When you said I needed education, I guess you weren't offering to provide it. Because you've said next to nothing that's factually based and offered no evidence to support your positions. Stick to propaganda, friend, at which you excel. As an educator, you're a washout.

The debate ends....
>> You are a little person fastened onto the those who would take what does not belong to them. <<

Ho-hum. Another fact-free comment. Again, the land belongs to the Hopi. As verified by everything from centuries-old shrines to independent court decisions. The trespassers are the only ones trying to take what doesn't belong to them.

The facts tell us the Hopi people have occupied and owned the Hopi tutsqua for 800 years. For instance: "The Hopi chiefs said, 'No, we don't have to have an agreement. This is our land. Always was our land.'" Apparently you can't touch this basic truth.

>> I don't want you or your spin on my site. <<

I didn't volunteer anything for your site. But I'm not surprised you don't want to burden yourself with facts. Are the trespassers paying you to shill for them, or do you do it free?

I think an article in the Hopi Tutuveni, 5/29/01, pegged many of you "activists" correctly. Here's what it said:

I guess you fall into the Webmaster category. Would you care to tell us who funds your website? Perhaps present the budgets of the groups you represent for a public audit?

>> We continue to stand with the Dine' <<

And I continue to stand with the Hopi. Who have sovereign jurisdiction over their ancestral domain, including Big Mountain. I also stand with the Diné who aren't trying to appropriate Hopi land in violation of the law.

'Bye, sonny. Next time you want to challenge someone on the land dispute, find someone who knows less than you do. Compared to me, you're a novice on the subject.

>> Your response is not required. <<

Neither is your assault on the Hopi, but that didn't stop you.

Don't worry. I offer my responses freely to educate people like you. You're welcome to the information.

Rob

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