Another response to Victor or Victim:  Our New National Anthem?:

>> Christians aren't victors, but partakers of grace. <<

>> No one is better than anyone. <<

The debate continues....
>> Yeah, looking back on that, I realize how bad that was. Yeah, Christains are considered to be victors by the Bible. <<

We agree!

>> Notice how that covenant was made before Christ was even born? <<

It's still God's alleged word. If Jesus disputed God later, it was their responsibility to get their stories straight. Otherwise a true believer would rightly be confused.

>> The Israelites were a "blessed nation" from whom Christ is born. <<

Christianity has its roots in Judaism. It adopted many of Judaism's ideas. One was that God would lift the believers above nonbelievers.

Many Christians believe the Bible's every word is literally true. I believe they rationalize the Old Testament as follows: Jews were "chosen" first to receive God's word, and then a subset of them were "chosen" to receive Jesus's word. That makes Bible-thumping Christians the chosen of the chosen.

>> I just saw the claim that the Bible tells Christians that they are better. That is a common mistake people make about Christianity. <<

Phrases like "God's chosen" are used throughout the Old and New Testament. Opening a Bible at random, it took me about five seconds to find such a phrase. "Impostors will come claiming to be prophets or messiahs, and they will produce signs and wonders to mislead God's chosen...." (Mark 13:22-23). Who are these "impostors" if not nonbelievers like Jews and Muslims? Jesus is warning people not follow false holy men like Muhammed because they're bad or corrupt—because Jesus is the only true messiah.

>> The Bible actually teaches that you (the Christian) should think of yourself lower than others. <<

The Bible teaches a lot of contradictory things. Christians can pick and choose what they believe and ignore the messages they don't believe. As one example, Jesus explicitly repudiates his Daddy's urging of "an eye for an eye." I guess Jesus was going through some sort of rebellious phase.

>> My personal thoughts are these; if someone wants to follow a selected religion, that's their choice. Whether it be Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, or whatever, it's their choice, but just be ready to be challenged. <<

I don't spend much time challenging people's religions unless they claim some moral or intellectual superiority for their beliefs.

>> You are right though. The Bible teaches that Christians are "victors", but that doesn't mean that they are better. Everyone does wrong. <<

Victors and winners aren't better than victims and losers? They're better at whatever aspect of life made them victorious, at least. If these victors generalize their victories to all spheres of human inactivity, it shouldn't surprise anyone. Most of the time, the Bible doesn't limit its talk of "chosen people" or "victors" to specific activities.

I suppose someone could be "chosen" yet gain no privilege or status from it, but humans are bound to declare "chosen" means superior. It's human nature. Look to your schoolyard for evidence. A child who gets chosen first gets deemed by his peers, or deems himself, the best.

Rob

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